Scrutable

And Grant Shapps was apparently told what P & O were going to do on 22nd November

https://twitter.com/itvjoel/status/1506 ... S759AtQcUw

Sorry for the flurry of tweets but this two tweet thread is important. First one he says they knew the law but decided to break it. Second one they say that they couldn’t consult the unions because there is no way the unions would agree.

https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1506 ... p-Su1PRs0Q

Stranger Mouse wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:41 am And Grant Shapps was apparently told what P & O were going to do on 22nd November

https://twitter.com/itvjoel/status/1506 ... S759AtQcUw

Sorry for the flurry of tweets but this two tweet thread is important. First one he says they knew the law but decided to break it. Second one they say that they couldn’t consult the unions because there is no way the unions would agree.

https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1506 ... p-Su1PRs0Q

That second one - well I guess the union's lawyers will have a field day with that.

jimbob wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:52 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:41 am And Grant Shapps was apparently told what P & O were going to do on 22nd November

https://twitter.com/itvjoel/status/1506 ... S759AtQcUw

Sorry for the flurry of tweets but this two tweet thread is important. First one he says they knew the law but decided to break it. Second one they say that they couldn’t consult the unions because there is no way the unions would agree.

https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1506 ... p-Su1PRs0Q

That second one - well I guess the union's lawyers will have a field day with that.

Grant Shapps lot are saying that minutes of 22nd November show that they were told P & O had challenges but there was nothing said about redundancy. No news yet on whether Michael Green was taking the minutes,

Stranger Mouse wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:10 am They’re getting an absolute kicking today. Jesus. I think they’re tw.ts but I almost feel sorry for them.

Almost.

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 42901.html

ETA direct live feed https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Ind ... edeedf6af1

ETA thread https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1 ... 6ZQ8o2u3nA

BEIS Committee chair Darren Jones kicks off hearing with P&O chief:

"When I was reading your biography, it seemed pretty light on your experience as a chief executive officer. Are you in this mess because you don’t know what you’re doing, or are you just a shameless criminal?"

Well I guess your subsequent post answered Darren Jones's opening question.

Where are these replacement workers living?

It seems odd to me that Ferry services workers aren't covered by national employment laws, either on the UK side or on the destination side (e.g. France, Ireland). Why is this so different to Airport staff (who, AIUI, are employed from a base airport subject to national employment rules)?

Seems to me this is a loophole, and one which can and should be closed.

TopBadger wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:31 pm Where are these replacement workers living?

It seems odd to me that Ferry services workers aren't covered by national employment laws, either on the UK side or on the destination side (e.g. France, Ireland). Why is this so different to Airport staff (who, AIUI, are employed from a base airport subject to national employment rules)?

Seems to me this is a loophole, and one which can and should be closed.

Seems strange to me that a ship exclusively travelling between two ports can be registered in a third country without ever visiting that country.

Grumble wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:19 pm Seems strange to me that a ship exclusively travelling between two ports can be registered in a third country without ever visiting that country.

Isn't that exactly what a 'flag of convenience' means? I didn't know Ferries were using it too though

science_fox wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:28 pm

Grumble wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:19 pm Seems strange to me that a ship exclusively travelling between two ports can be registered in a third country without ever visiting that country.

Isn't that exactly what a 'flag of convenience' means? I didn't know Ferries were using it too though

Yes, but I can understand it on a cargo ship that might sail anywhere in the world. Ferries could be classed differently fairly easily you would think.

They should be registered initially in the country of production then have to travel at least once a year to the country of registration.

Grumble wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:41 pm Yes, but I can understand it on a cargo ship that might sail anywhere in the world. Ferries could be classed differently fairly easily you would think.

They should be registered initially in the country of production then have to travel at least once a year to the country of registration.

Why not simply require them to be flagged with one of the ports they service... ferries between UK and France should be UK or French flagged.

Grumble wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:41 pm They should be registered initially in the country of production then have to travel at least once a year to the country of registration.

Moldova, Mongolia and Bolivia all have an open registry (they are all landlocked).

TopBadger wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:13 pm

Grumble wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:41 pm Yes, but I can understand it on a cargo ship that might sail anywhere in the world. Ferries could be classed differently fairly easily you would think.

They should be registered initially in the country of production then have to travel at least once a year to the country of registration.

Why not simply require them to be flagged with one of the ports they service... ferries between UK and France should be UK or French flagged.

Yes, for ferries that should be easy, you would think. By forcing all ships to travel to the port/country of registration periodically you would cut out the nonsense of a Dover-Calais ferry being registered in Malta (or wherever it was). I realise the world depends on cheap trade and cheap shipping so I’m sure there would be knock-on effects to this.

stańczyk wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:19 pm

Grumble wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:41 pm They should be registered initially in the country of production then have to travel at least once a year to the country of registration.

Moldova, Mongolia and Bolivia all have an open registry (they are all landlocked).

Moldova has pretty simple ocean access along navigable rivers, with a short jaunt along the Dnister river (when Russia isn't trying to capture it), and the Danube (e.g. from Giurgiulesti International Free Port). I don't know if Bolivia's connection to the Amazon is navigable.

Does Austria have a registry? I imagine that there might be some vessels still afloat that date from when it did have a seaport (see the Sound of Music for details).

we (the UK and Ireland and France) could make a start by having a law that says all crew members of any ship using a UK port has to be paid UK minimum wage while they're in UK waters. If France had a similar law, Dover-Calais ferry crews would have to be decently paid. etc

dyqik wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:50 pm Does Austria have a registry? I imagine that there might be some vessels still afloat that date from when it did have a seaport (see the Sound of Music for details).

Yes, Austria has a registry and a merchant vessel fleet.

Heard Grant Shapps on the radio... he considers this a loophole to close.

TopBadger wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:49 pm Heard Grant Shapps on the radio... he considers this a loophole to close.

Did he say this as Grant Shapps or one of his alter egos?

stańczyk wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:05 pm

dyqik wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:50 pm Does Austria have a registry? I imagine that there might be some vessels still afloat that date from when it did have a seaport (see the Sound of Music for details).

Yes, Austria has a registry and a merchant vessel fleet.

Registries are not only for sea vessels. Lots of shipping on the Danube (Austria), Amazon basin (Bolivia), etc. Maybe in Mongolia they register boats on Lake Khövsgöl.

stańczyk wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:19 pm Moldova, Mongolia and Bolivia all have an open registry (they are all landlocked).

Yes but how about Liechtenstein and Uzbekistan eh? Quizzers need to know.

There are reports that staff weren't allowed to collect personal belongings from their belongings.

jimbob wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:45 am There are reports that staff weren't allowed to collect personal belongings from their belongings.

That’s straight theft. Who has jurisdiction?

Grumble wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:07 am

jimbob wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:45 am There are reports that staff weren't allowed to collect personal belongings from their belongings.

That’s straight theft. Who has jurisdiction?

story here.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scot ... 551399.amp

Lew Dolby wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:51 pm we (the UK and Ireland and France) could make a start by having a law that says all crew members of any ship using a UK port has to be paid UK minimum wage while they're in UK waters. If France had a similar law, Dover-Calais ferry crews would have to be decently paid. etc

It would be something that would be much easier and more powerful to do if it was an EU law and we were still in the EU. If we aren't in the EU, the French will first consider if there is any way they could take advantage of us. That is their instinct.

More generally, it might be something that could work, given some cooperation from nearby countries, but only really for short distance shipping. Longer distance shipping would just find a convenient way to raise two fingers, there isn't a shortage of ways for them to do that. It would be basically unenforceable on them.

IvanV wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:17 am If we aren't in the EU, the French will first consider if there is any way they could take advantage of us. That is their instinct.

I am curious about what you mean there.

Holylol wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:09 pm

IvanV wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:17 am If we aren't in the EU, the French will first consider if there is any way they could take advantage of us. That is their instinct.

I am curious about what you mean there.

I'm not. I assume it's just the sort of projection you'd expect from the current UK establishment.