Scrutable

Tristan wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2024 1:11 pmYou don't have alive people who think they're dead for one thing.

Imrael wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 7:32 am At risk of being contrarian, what are the arguments against allowing assisted death for people with chronic conditions that affect quality of life (which might well include mental health issues), with safeguards for consent.

My anecdata here is looking after my Father in Law in his declining years. In his 90's, while still lucid, he suffered from painful mobility problems, deafness and a speech problem. Despite all we could do he was bored a lot, in pain and frustrated. He frequently said to me that he would like to go to sleep and not wake up. All that lay ahead of him was a couple of years of physical and mental distress. (Made worse since he was in hospital then nursing home in Covid lockdown when we couldnt visit him).

lpm wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2024 12:14 pm The dynamics are completely different.

There aren't any life extremists threatening to rape and kill death extremists. There's actually a good chance of a reasoned and respectful debate.

bob sterman wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 7:38 am

Imrael wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 7:32 am At risk of being contrarian, what are the arguments against allowing assisted death for people with chronic conditions that affect quality of life (which might well include mental health issues), with safeguards for consent.

That it leads to the problems highlighted in the examples above - the elderly and people with disabilities and chronic conditions end up experiencing pressure to end their lives. And healthcare systems start to see offering death as an alternative to providing basic appropriate care.

Woodchopper wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:22 am

bob sterman wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 7:38 am

Imrael wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 7:32 am At risk of being contrarian, what are the arguments against allowing assisted death for people with chronic conditions that affect quality of life (which might well include mental health issues), with safeguards for consent.

That it leads to the problems highlighted in the examples above - the elderly and people with disabilities and chronic conditions end up experiencing pressure to end their lives. And healthcare systems start to see offering death as an alternative to providing basic appropriate care.

Yes, the argument is that it’s the slippery slope in the thread title. Once assisted dying becomes legal it is then possible to fudge the criteria and use it as an alternative to providing expensive services to people who would want to live if they got the care they need.

Martin_B wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:44 am The trouble is that was the argument used against marriage equality; once you start allowing same sex marriage then it is possible to fudge the criteria and use it to allow people to marry pets or furniture. That didn't happen.

lpm wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2024 8:09 am

Martin_B wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:44 am The trouble is that was the argument used against marriage equality; once you start allowing same sex marriage then it is possible to fudge the criteria and use it to allow people to marry pets or furniture. That didn't happen.

But it has happened on this issue. It's not a hypothetical. The slope has been slipped down.

Martin_B wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:44 am

Woodchopper wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:22 am

bob sterman wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 7:38 am

That it leads to the problems highlighted in the examples above - the elderly and people with disabilities and chronic conditions end up experiencing pressure to end their lives. And healthcare systems start to see offering death as an alternative to providing basic appropriate care.

Yes, the argument is that it’s the slippery slope in the thread title. Once assisted dying becomes legal it is then possible to fudge the criteria and use it as an alternative to providing expensive services to people who would want to live if they got the care they need.

The trouble is that was the argument used against marriage equality; once you start allowing same sex marriage then it is possible to fudge the criteria and use it to allow people to marry pets or furniture. That didn't happen.

Mind you, it did happen when they allowed women the vote - once that happened they started standing for election, and then running the place!

Woodchopper wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:22 am ... Once assisted dying becomes legal it is then possible to fudge the criteria and use it as an alternative to providing expensive services to people who would want to live if they got the care they need.

JQH wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 11:12 am

Woodchopper wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:22 am ... Once assisted dying becomes legal it is then possible to fudge the criteria and use it as an alternative to providing expensive services to people who would want to live if they got the care they need.

That is my worry. I have Parkinsons but am kept functional by expensive drugs. If they were with-held my life would become very difficult perhaps even intolerable.

El Pollo Diablo wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 12:47 pm There doesn't seem to be quite the same set of issues in the Netherlands, or at least the Wikipedia article about it doesn't feature the same set of criticisms.

Certainly, it does seem as if Canada are making a mess of it, but experience elsewhere suggests that it doesn't have to be a mess. Less than 10% of the governing party's MPs supporting a more lenient position hardly implies that's where it'll land.

My opinion on this aligns with Terry Pratchett's, even if there are concerns about it. Many people are suffering deeply and a lot of them would like to end their lives before their pain reaches intolerable levels. It's not a neutral position to just say no.

Fishnut wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 1:19 pm Oregon seems to be an example of it working well. Their 26th Death with Dignity Act report shows that around 67% of people who receive prescriptions to end their lives actually use them, and people choosing to end their lives under the act account for 0.8% of the state's population.

Personally, I find it an affront that we are willing to extend lives using medicine in ways that often leave people in pain but aren't willing to use those same medicines to give people a dignified ending. A friend of the family recently passed away. She was on "palliative care" at home and for at least the last week she wasn't eating or drinking. The only fluids she was receiving was having her lips wetted. She was, fortunately, barely conscious most of the time but when she was she was in pain. Her family had to watch her starve and dehydrate to death. Why? What benefit was there to make her last week like that? Her quality of life was non-existent - she was in a bed in her living room, unable to move, barely able to talk, barely aware of her surroundings. She was in her 90s and honestly deserved better than that.

I love what medicine has been able to do to extend lives and improve its quality for so many. I've got family and friends who wouldn't be here today if it weren't for the wonders of modern medicine. But that comes with the ability to keep people alive beyond what is tolerable for some, and I don't understand why we can't allow those people to be more in control of the manner of their inevitable death.

Fishnut wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 1:19 pm I don't understand why we can't allow those people to be more in control of the manner of their inevitable death.

lpm wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 2:57 pm

Fishnut wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 1:19 pm I don't understand why we can't allow those people to be more in control of the manner of their inevitable death.

The case you describe does not sound like one where the individual was in control and had the capacity to make decisions.

There's a fundamental problem in that so many end of life decisions need to be taken at a point where the individual is vulnerable and cannot be the decision maker.

El Pollo Diablo wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 12:47 pm There doesn't seem to be quite the same set of issues in the Netherlands, or at least the Wikipedia article about it doesn't feature the same set of criticisms.