Scrutable

Martin_B wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:01 pm

bjn wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:00 am

Martin_B wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:43 am OK, but let's ignore the Nigerian coast(1) and the Soviet Union's horrendous treatment of the environment in places like the Kazakhstan oil fields(2).

The oil industry tends to go out of it's way to prevent oil spills, if for no other reason than it's lost revenue. Arguably the biggest environmental impact from the oil industry in recent years has been the damage caused by fracking in America (I think Tennessee would be upset if you called it the 3rd world!) when fracking was a new technology and still not well understood, so they: a) fracked where the geology wasn't suitable, and b) didn't clean-up their water properly before disposal.

Not that I'm trying to paint the oil industry as saints (hey, I work for them) - they are capitalist industries who try to maximise profits for their shareholders - but they aren't the rapacious environmental murders that many people seem to believe.

(1) Most of the Nigerian spills were caused by local people trying to get compensation for damage to their land, and underestimating the extent of the spills they would cause.
(2) The Soviet's simply didn't care about the locals, they needed the oil for their industry and didn't care about the environment. But this had nothing to do with the oil industries.

Nigeria and Russia was mainly what I was thinking of. But the Alberta tar sands are bastard things as well, consuming a huge amount of water to process them, even if they don't spill that often.

True, and not the cleanest way of producing hydrocarbons, but again I think it's off to call Canada a 3rd world country!

nekomatic wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:34 pm

Grumble wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:41 amI’m wondering currently if I should replace my diesel car with an electric. It’s nowhere near the end of its life.

I would start by trying to find out what the actual NOx emissions of your diesel are, as I believe the ones that are bad for that are really bad while the ones that aren’t are a whole lot better. Not sure where you find that info most easily but if I discover I’ll share it.

Sciolus wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:36 pmBut please don't confuse NOx (local air quality, getting better) with CO2 (global climate change, getting worse).

discovolante wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:19 am I have nothing sensible or evidenced based to add atm but overall i feel (broadly speaking) we are almost hard wired to see the solution to problems such as plastic, food waste etc as being to replace one type of consumption with another, rather than just trying to look at how we can reduce consumption. E.g. buying reusable coffee cups rather than just not having a cup of coffee on the go.

I do mean broadly speaking but I'm kind of interested to see if my hunch is right or not. I mean the reality is that we need to eat and practically nobody has the space or time to even consider being remotely self-sustaining so there are limits to what we can do. But e.g. buying lots of snacks in disposable packaging, buying new clothes etc.

We have had discussions about buying new economic appliances vs running old ones into the ground quite a few times but I'm talking more broadly here.

discovolante wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:19 am I have nothing sensible or evidenced based to add atm but overall i feel (broadly speaking) we are almost hard wired to see the solution to problems such as plastic, food waste etc as being to replace one type of consumption with another, rather than just trying to look at how we can reduce consumption. E.g. buying reusable coffee cups rather than just not having a cup of coffee on the go.

plodder wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:18 am Of course, the grown up solution is to do what people did only about 20 years ago, and not expect to be able to drink coffee wherever and whenever you want.

bjn wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:42 am

plodder wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:18 am Of course, the grown up solution is to do what people did only about 20 years ago, and not expect to be able to drink coffee wherever and whenever you want.

You aren’t Italian are you.

dyqik wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:04 pm

bjn wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:42 am

plodder wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:18 am Of course, the grown up solution is to do what people did only about 20 years ago, and not expect to be able to drink coffee wherever and whenever you want.

You aren’t Italian are you.

Italians would drink it standing up from a ceramic cup that they then leave behind in the coffee shop.

In Our Time from a couple of months back informed me that this is due to Italy having had price control on cups of coffee, but not including service etc. So the cheapest coffee option was an espresso downed at the counter.

Which suggests a simple solution - mandatory charges for take-out cups.

Bird on a Fire wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:33 pm ETA what episode of In Our Time? Might check it out if you can remember the topic

Gfamily wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:40 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:33 pm ETA what episode of In Our Time? Might check it out if you can remember the topic

I could be wrong, but most likely the 12th Dec one called 'Coffee'

dyqik wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:04 pm

bjn wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:42 am

plodder wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:18 am Of course, the grown up solution is to do what people did only about 20 years ago, and not expect to be able to drink coffee wherever and whenever you want.

You aren’t Italian are you.

Italians would drink it standing up from a ceramic cup that they then leave behind in the coffee shop.

In Our Time from a couple of months back informed me that this is due to Italy having had price control on cups of coffee, but not including service etc. So the cheapest coffee option was an espresso downed at the counter.

Which suggests a simple solution - mandatory charges for take-out cups.

Bird on a Fire wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:43 pm

Gfamily wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:40 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:33 pm ETA what episode of In Our Time? Might check it out if you can remember the topic

I could be wrong, but most likely the 12th Dec one called 'Coffee'

Very plausible, thanks!

Bird on a Fire wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:33 pm … ETA what episode of In Our Time? Might check it out if you can remember the topic

plodder wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:18 pm Consumerism is a modern phenomenon created by modern conditions. To end consumerism all we need to do is remove those conditions.

plodder wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:18 pm Consumerism is a modern phenomenon created by modern conditions. To end consumerism all we need to do is remove those conditions.

plodder wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:00 pm Right, but what exactly does that mean in practice? It's as simple as a few tweaks on the creation and flows of cash, that's all. It would have profound effects.