Scrutable

Interesting announcement, not more pay for teachers... or free school meals... no, what the kids need are elocution lessons

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66113585

I mean, wtf Kier?

It's not elocution lessons, it's how to make speeches and have debates. And tbh given the increased dominance of privately-schooled doofuses in public life, it seems sensible to me to tool up more normal people with the skills to handle basic aspects of political life.

El Pollo Diablo wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:23 am It's not elocution lessons, it's how to make speeches and have debates. And tbh given the increased dominance of privately-schooled doofuses in public life, it seems sensible to me to tool up more normal people with the skills to handle basic aspects of political life.

Rhetoric is an important life skill. Perhaps it shouldn't be, but it is. We learned persuasive writing at school, adding persuasive speaking seems like a sensible idea.

Oh great, the next generation of Plandemic and Qanon morons will be even better at being argumentative.

lpm wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:38 am Oh great, the next generation of Plandemic and Qanon morons will be even better at being argumentative.

Well yes, this is also true.

El Pollo Diablo wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:58 am

lpm wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:38 am Oh great, the next generation of Plandemic and Qanon morons will be even better at being argumentative.

Well yes, this is also true.

Although ChatGPT was already enabling that.

Tbf I wish I'd learned public speaking skills when I was younger, I have to speak in court for my job and it doesn't come naturally to me at all. It was just something I had to get used to. I'm sure other people are the same with teaching and stuff. But I dunno, seems an odd topic to focus on given the clusterf.ck surrounding it.

I did like that during a speech about young people learning how to express themselves, he turned round and basically said "No, not you two. You two be quiet."

Didn't everybody go to a school that had a Debating Society?

Oh no, of course they didn't, that's just for the posh f.ckers ...






... and people like me who got a scholarship.

Opti wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 2:11 pm Didn't everybody go to a school that had a Debating Society?

Oh no, of course they didn't, that's just for the posh f.ckers ...






... and people like me who got a scholarship.

I went to a school that had a debating club, but that’s quite different from it being taught in lessons. It had a rugby club as well, I didn’t go to either.

Opti wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 2:11 pm Didn't everybody go to a school that had a Debating Society?

Oh no, of course they didn't, that's just for the posh f.ckers ...






... and people like me who got a scholarship.

My state school had debating as part of English lessons, but then again I grew in Sydney.

If we can make this “critical thinking and thought expression” that’d be great.

Expressing thought based on uncritical consumption of “facts”…not so much.

headshot wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 6:41 pm If we can make this “critical thinking and thought expression” that’d be great.

Expressing thought based on uncritical consumption of “facts”…not so much.

Rhetoric/persuasive speaking/presentation skills as part of a meaningful civics curriculum that also included critical thinking, information hygiene and the basics of law would be a very useful thing to teach in schools.

My wife is an Information Specialist at a university library and she concurs.

EACLucifer wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:08 pm

headshot wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 6:41 pm If we can make this “critical thinking and thought expression” that’d be great.

Expressing thought based on uncritical consumption of “facts”…not so much.

Rhetoric/persuasive speaking/presentation skills as part of a meaningful civics curriculum that also included critical thinking, information hygiene and the basics of law would be a very useful thing to teach in schools.

Not least because it teaches you how to spot the tricks of rhetoric in others.

EACLucifer wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:08 pm

headshot wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 6:41 pm If we can make this “critical thinking and thought expression” that’d be great.

Expressing thought based on uncritical consumption of “facts”…not so much.

Rhetoric/persuasive speaking/presentation skills as part of a meaningful civics curriculum that also included critical thinking, information hygiene and the basics of law would be a very useful thing to teach in schools.

Obviously I would say this, but on reflection I do find it a bit odd that almost nothing about the legal system is taught in schools. That said I've met plenty of people with law degrees and nothing further whose confidence in their knowledge of the legal system far outstrips the reality. Sounds familiar eh! (By which I mean...in general, not you)

lpm wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:38 am Oh great, the next generation of Plandemic and Qanon morons will be even better at being argumentative.

Nah, I'm pretty sure the crackpot market is mainly limited by demand not supply. It might change the demographics of who rises to lead them (fewer privately-educated grifters - I wouldn't be surprised if Piers Corbyn's educational background included this training for example).

However, if more people are trained in the tricks of rhetoric, then they are likely to spot the tricks being used and less likely to fall for them.

jimbob wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 8:15 am However, if more people are trained in the tricks of rhetoric, then they are likely to spot the tricks being used and less likely to fall for them.

I guess that's why 'people who think they're important' are so sniffy about people who do 'Media Studies' courses - if done well, they pass on the tricks of the trade, so they can be recognised when applied by 'people who think they're important'.

Gfamily wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 8:48 am

jimbob wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 8:15 am However, if more people are trained in the tricks of rhetoric, then they are likely to spot the tricks being used and less likely to fall for them.

I guess that's why 'people who think they're important' are so sniffy about people who do 'Media Studies' courses - if done well, they pass on the tricks of the trade, so they can be recognised when applied by 'people who think they're important'.

Nice point

discovolante wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 8:24 pm

EACLucifer wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:08 pm

headshot wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 6:41 pm If we can make this “critical thinking and thought expression” that’d be great.

Expressing thought based on uncritical consumption of “facts”…not so much.

Rhetoric/persuasive speaking/presentation skills as part of a meaningful civics curriculum that also included critical thinking, information hygiene and the basics of law would be a very useful thing to teach in schools.

Obviously I would say this, but on reflection I do find it a bit odd that almost nothing about the legal system is taught in schools. That said I've met plenty of people with law degrees and nothing further whose confidence in their knowledge of the legal system far outstrips the reality. Sounds familiar eh! (By which I mean...in general, not you)

One reason everyone should be taught the fundamentals of law and how law comes into being is so as to arm the ordinary person with what they need to push back against the entitled dickhead scofflaws who are utterly convinced the law is what they want it to be. In my current campaigning, that's landowners, but there's plenty of other examples out there.

EACLucifer wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 11:15 am

discovolante wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 8:24 pm

EACLucifer wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:08 pm

Rhetoric/persuasive speaking/presentation skills as part of a meaningful civics curriculum that also included critical thinking, information hygiene and the basics of law would be a very useful thing to teach in schools.

Obviously I would say this, but on reflection I do find it a bit odd that almost nothing about the legal system is taught in schools. That said I've met plenty of people with law degrees and nothing further whose confidence in their knowledge of the legal system far outstrips the reality. Sounds familiar eh! (By which I mean...in general, not you)

One reason everyone should be taught the fundamentals of law and how law comes into being is so as to arm the ordinary person with what they need to push back against the entitled dickhead scofflaws who are utterly convinced the law is what they want it to be. In my current campaigning, that's landowners, but there's plenty of other examples out there.

There's a book about that: https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-po ... 1780273105

Uuuuuuuuh wot

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ir-starmer

discovolante wrote: Sun Jul 16, 2023 5:05 pm Uuuuuuuuh wot

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ir-starmer

I'm ok with this policy... having kids is a choice after all, if you can't afford to have three, then don't.

TopBadger wrote: Sun Jul 16, 2023 5:31 pm

discovolante wrote: Sun Jul 16, 2023 5:05 pm Uuuuuuuuh wot

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ir-starmer

I'm ok with this policy... having kids is a choice after all, if you can't afford to have three, then don't.

Why have any child benefit at all then?

TopBadger wrote: Sun Jul 16, 2023 5:31 pm

discovolante wrote: Sun Jul 16, 2023 5:05 pm Uuuuuuuuh wot

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ir-starmer

I'm ok with this policy... having kids is a choice after all, if you can't afford to have three, then don't.

Not a choice for the kids in question, though, is it?

The sheer damage to the economy done by the Tories, Austerity and Brexit leaves it hard to fund everything that needs funding, but I really don't agree with this choice - it's a moral issue of course and that's enough reason, but on top of that giving kids a better start gives them more chance of contributing later on in life.