Scrutable

HFCV Nikola company slowly collapsing, being somewhat untruthful as to what you've made doesn't help at all, and their erstwhile partners at GM are abandoning them.

bjn wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:43 am Provided there is a decent charging network, the only advantage that a renewables derived liquid/gas fuel vehicle has over a battery vehicle is the ability to refuel rapidly.

One of the issues often overlooked when casually mentioning charging networks is the amount of energy to be distributed. The average UK mileage driven seems to be about 7,500 miles. The Tesla S is supposed use 0.3 kWh per mile (based on 75kWh battery) so that's 2250 kWh per year or 6 kWh per day. The typical current electricity usage per household is up to 10 kWh per day. So that's over a 50% increase in electricity generating and distribution capacity for households with one car.

In contrast, a petrol tanker carries enough fuel to power over 10000 days of the same mileage, so a town of 10000 people could be served by a delivery of one tanker per day.

Millennie Al wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:49 am

bjn wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:43 am Provided there is a decent charging network, the only advantage that a renewables derived liquid/gas fuel vehicle has over a battery vehicle is the ability to refuel rapidly.

One of the issues often overlooked when casually mentioning charging networks is the amount of energy to be distributed. The average UK mileage driven seems to be about 7,500 miles. The Tesla S is supposed use 0.3 kWh per mile (based on 75kWh battery) so that's 2250 kWh per year or 6 kWh per day. The typical current electricity usage per household is up to 10 kWh per day. So that's over a 50% increase in electricity generating and distribution capacity for households with one car.

In contrast, a petrol tanker carries enough fuel to power over 10000 days of the same mileage, so a town of 10000 people could be served by a delivery of one tanker per day.

Fortunately there is more than 50% difference between the max and min power usage on the grid between night and day. Most cars will be charged at night.

National Grid certainly seem quite happy that there’s enough capacity. https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/jo ... les-busted

Grumble wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:10 am

Millennie Al wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:49 am

bjn wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:43 am Provided there is a decent charging network, the only advantage that a renewables derived liquid/gas fuel vehicle has over a battery vehicle is the ability to refuel rapidly.

One of the issues often overlooked when casually mentioning charging networks is the amount of energy to be distributed. The average UK mileage driven seems to be about 7,500 miles. The Tesla S is supposed use 0.3 kWh per mile (based on 75kWh battery) so that's 2250 kWh per year or 6 kWh per day. The typical current electricity usage per household is up to 10 kWh per day. So that's over a 50% increase in electricity generating and distribution capacity for households with one car.

In contrast, a petrol tanker carries enough fuel to power over 10000 days of the same mileage, so a town of 10000 people could be served by a delivery of one tanker per day.

Fortunately there is more than 50% difference between the max and min power usage on the grid between night and day. Most cars will be charged at night.

National Grid certainly seem quite happy that there’s enough capacity. https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/jo ... les-busted

There’s a reason I have him on ignore.

Grumble wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:10 am National Grid certainly seem quite happy that there’s enough capacity. https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/jo ... les-busted

There's a lot of spin and wishful thinking in that. For example it says:

no matter what time you come home and plug your car in at, it will charge when you need it but will pause during that evening peak

It seems to me that it's quite possible that people will charge their vehicles over a long period at night and so not overload the infrastructure, but why doesn't the article just directly say that? It seems to me to be worded as if the authors suspected that there would be people who wanted to charge their vehicles during the evening peak and this would cause difficulty, so they were evasive.

For an article supposedly about myths, they say:

EVs are much more expensive than petrol and diesel equivalents

The correct answer to this is that it's not a myth at all. When new technology is introduced it's always expensive and bought by rich people who like it better than what went before. This gradually causes improvements and economies of scale which brings the price down, but we're still at a poing where EV really are more expensive. It also means that initially manufacturers may target wealthy people, so the products are not equivalent to existing basic models and so cannot fairly be compared to them.

And when we get to number 6, we see a bit of a contrast to the earlier question bout charging capacity. Here, since the focus is on recharging fast enough to fit in a motorway service station visit we find that we're going to charge our cars in 20 minutes while we get a coffee. On one hand, that's perfectly reasonable as drivers do need a rest, but that relies on fast chargers such as the 150kW ones. It also means that when you look around a motorway service station car park today and see maybe 300+ space, it's going to require almost all of them to be wired up to charge vehicles during those 20 minutes (many drivers might stay longer, but are they going to come out after 20 minutes and move the car to a non-charging space to free up a charger?). And, of course 300 x 150kW is 45 MW, so even if the power is available, it'll require special connections as service stations today would have no need for that sort of power.

It's all doable in the longer term, but it's not trivial and I always get the feeling from articles like this that either the authors are very optimisic or they're not being very honest about the work required.

Ah, the confidence of a mediocre man on a forum with no relevant expertise who knows the national electricity supply capacity better than National Grid, and has thoughts based on the close textual intepretation of a few paragraphs aimed at the general public, with minimal presentation of detailed numbers.

dyqik wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:16 am Ah, the confidence of a mediocre man on a forum with no relevant expertise who knows the national electricity supply capacity better than National Grid, and has thoughts based on the close textual intepretation of a few paragraphs aimed at the general public, with minimal presentation of detailed numbers.

I refer the honoured dyqik to my previous post on the best way to handle said mediocre person.

What proportion of the cars at a typical motorway services will actually need charging anyway? Most people are not driving 200+ miles, and many won't need to charge up when they stop for a toilet break or whatever, so just adding up the cars will give an overestimate of the power needed. 1 in 10 on fast chargers might be an underestimation, but that brings it into the rough ballpark of 1 wind turbine, which doesn't strike me as an insurmountable challenge.

AMS wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:42 pm What proportion of the cars at a typical motorway services will actually need charging anyway? Most people are not driving 200+ miles, and many won't need to charge up when they stop for a toilet break or whatever, so just adding up the cars will give an overestimate of the power needed. 1 in 10 on fast chargers might be an underestimation, but that brings it into the rough ballpark of 1 wind turbine, which doesn't strike me as an insurmountable challenge.

I guess you could work it out based on the proportion of cars at a typical service station that top up with fuel (bet that data is available somewhere), divided by the fraction of a ICE car's range that a typical EV would have.

OTOH I wonder if knowing that you need to take a break every 300km anyway could influence driving habits and route planning - e.g. when google maps integrates with your car battery over bluetooth or whatever. It could probably also respond to real-time charger availability anyway. All sorts of funky stuff will turn up to help with load management.

Electric cars and their associated infrastructure are all going to be smart and whizzy and futuristic, they're not stupid old hunks of metal holding tanks of highly flammable fossil hydrocarbons. LMAO.

If I had an electric car and was stopping for a coffee/loo break, I’d probably want to top it off if a charger was available and I was getting low-ish. It (should) only take moments to attach a cable to your car.

Re BOAFs point about route planning, from my friends and the other reports of folks driving electric cars, that’s exactly what they do. Again it’s another thing Tesla does better than other BEV makers, they’ve integrated charging stops into their navigation software with real-time availability of charging stations.

bjn wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:42 am If I had an electric car and was stopping for a coffee/loo break, I’d probably want to top it off if a charger was available and I was getting low-ish. It (should) only take moments to attach a cable to your car.

Re BOAFs point about route planning, from my friends and the other reports of folks driving electric cars, that’s exactly what they do. Again it’s another thing Tesla does better than other BEV makers, they’ve integrated charging stops into their navigation software with real-time availability of charging stations.

If you’re topping up it’s worth pointing out that it won’t be charging at full power.

Other BEV makers are catching up with Tesla in terms of putting charging in the Nav, don’t know about real time availability though.

I think the most incongruous (but actually quite sensible) EV charging point I saw (about 7-years ago) was on the Isle of Colonsay. About 4km long and with a population of under 150.

Of all the things that put me off getting a BEV the public charging is the most important. I’m aware it’s getting better, but so many seem to require a membership, an app or a card. It should be as easy as buying petrol. Tap a card to a terminal, done. By all means offer a better rate to members, but absolutely anyone should be able to get a charge from any station, there should be no barrier to entry beyond the ability to pay and having a compatible socket.

jimbob wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:39 am I think the most incongruous (but actually quite sensible) EV charging point I saw (about 7-years ago) was on the Isle of Colonsay. About 4km long and with a population of under 150.

Very sensible indeed.

It's the sort of thing that owners of holiday cottages in rural areas might want to start to think about installing too. And another reason why generic connectivity would be good.

Grumble wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:21 pm Of all the things that put me off getting a BEV the public charging is the most important. I’m aware it’s getting better, but so many seem to require a membership, an app or a card. It should be as easy as buying petrol. Tap a card to a terminal, done. By all means offer a better rate to members, but absolutely anyone should be able to get a charge from any station, there should be no barrier to entry beyond the ability to pay and having a compatible socket.

They are making smart chargers where you don't even need to do that, just plug it in and it has a chat to your car about how it should be paid for and gets on with it. The standard is fairly recent though.

Again, this is where Tesla has a strong USP, their charging network.

Bird on a Fire wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:22 am

AMS wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:42 pm What proportion of the cars at a typical motorway services will actually need charging anyway? Most people are not driving 200+ miles, and many won't need to charge up when they stop for a toilet break or whatever, so just adding up the cars will give an overestimate of the power needed.

I guess you could work it out based on the proportion of cars at a typical service station that top up with fuel (bet that data is available somewhere), divided by the fraction of a ICE car's range that a typical EV would have.

Sure, most people on the motorway aren't going 200+ miles, but nor will they stop at the services.

The numbers will be distorted as people only stop at motorway services if they're travelling for a moderately long time and even if you take a loo/coffee break people don't refuel at motorway prices if they don't have to. They're less grim places than they used to be but they're expensive and mostly not nice, just convenient if it's necessary to stop. The shorter range of BEVs will increase the proportion of people whose car needs a break as much as its occupants.

bjn wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:01 pm

Grumble wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:21 pm Of all the things that put me off getting a BEV the public charging is the most important. I’m aware it’s getting better, but so many seem to require a membership, an app or a card. It should be as easy as buying petrol. Tap a card to a terminal, done. By all means offer a better rate to members, but absolutely anyone should be able to get a charge from any station, there should be no barrier to entry beyond the ability to pay and having a compatible socket.

They are making smart chargers where you don't even need to do that, just plug it in and it has a chat to your car about how it should be paid for and gets on with it. The standard is fairly recent though.

So this would be a new standard which none of the current standards are compatible with?

All we need is that (a) the plug is the same, (b) there's 50 kW of power available, (c) it has a f.cking credit/debit card reader attached, and (d) there's enough of them; all this Oh BuT It TALKs tO YOuR CAr ABouT THe BeST way to USe YoU BaTTerY tO ManAGE peaK Load WHILe OpTImiZiNg yoUR jOURney ExpeRieNCe is software w.nkery.

shpalman wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:16 pm All we need is that (a) the plug is the same, (b) there's 50 kW of power available, (c) it has a f.cking credit/debit card reader attached, and (d) there's enough of them; all this Oh BuT It TALKs tO YOuR CAr ABouT THe BeST way to USe YoU BaTTerY tO ManAGE peaK Load WHILe OpTImiZiNg yoUR jOURney ExpeRieNCe is software w.nkery.

We also need the robot valet to shuffle your car so the next family can also get enough charge to get home from the seaside before midnight. If I go on a trip somewhere I don't want to have to come back to the car and move it. At least in decades past you could cheekily feed a parking meter even though you were meant to f.ck off and find another spot.

Martin Y wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:36 pm

shpalman wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:16 pm All we need is that (a) the plug is the same, (b) there's 50 kW of power available, (c) it has a f.cking credit/debit card reader attached, and (d) there's enough of them; all this Oh BuT It TALKs tO YOuR CAr ABouT THe BeST way to USe YoU BaTTerY tO ManAGE peaK Load WHILe OpTImiZiNg yoUR jOURney ExpeRieNCe is software w.nkery.

We also need the robot valet to shuffle your car so the next family can also get enough charge to get home from the seaside before midnight. If I go on a trip somewhere I don't want to have to come back to the car and move it. At least in decades past you could cheekily feed a parking meter even though you were meant to f.ck off and find another spot.

That can be solved by just having enough charging bays for peak periods.

Martin Y wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:36 pm

shpalman wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:16 pm All we need is that (a) the plug is the same, (b) there's 50 kW of power available, (c) it has a f.cking credit/debit card reader attached, and (d) there's enough of them; all this Oh BuT It TALKs tO YOuR CAr ABouT THe BeST way to USe YoU BaTTerY tO ManAGE peaK Load WHILe OpTImiZiNg yoUR jOURney ExpeRieNCe is software w.nkery.

We also need the robot valet to shuffle your car so the next family can also get enough charge to get home from the seaside before midnight. If I go on a trip somewhere I don't want to have to come back to the car and move it. At least in decades past you could cheekily feed a parking meter even though you were meant to f.ck off and find another spot.

Well that's why every parking space needs a charger even if they won't necessarily all be taking 50 kW at once.

shpalman wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:09 pm

Martin Y wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:36 pm

shpalman wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:16 pm All we need is that (a) the plug is the same, (b) there's 50 kW of power available, (c) it has a f.cking credit/debit card reader attached, and (d) there's enough of them; all this Oh BuT It TALKs tO YOuR CAr ABouT THe BeST way to USe YoU BaTTerY tO ManAGE peaK Load WHILe OpTImiZiNg yoUR jOURney ExpeRieNCe is software w.nkery.

We also need the robot valet to shuffle your car so the next family can also get enough charge to get home from the seaside before midnight. If I go on a trip somewhere I don't want to have to come back to the car and move it. At least in decades past you could cheekily feed a parking meter even though you were meant to f.ck off and find another spot.

Well that's why every parking space needs a charger even if they won't necessarily all be taking 50 kW at once.

Or you could have a charger for a group of four parking spaces, and either multiple cables with the supply being switched according to the queue, or connectors that unlock after a set exclusive charging period in case someone else wants to use them.

Grumble wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:21 pm Of all the things that put me off getting a BEV the public charging is the most important. I’m aware it’s getting better, but so many seem to require a membership, an app or a card. It should be as easy as buying petrol. Tap a card to a terminal, done. By all means offer a better rate to members, but absolutely anyone should be able to get a charge from any station, there should be no barrier to entry beyond the ability to pay and having a compatible socket.

Chargemaster do my f.cking head in with this, the SSID-wielding bunch of knackers.

shpalman wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:16 pm

bjn wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:01 pm

Grumble wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:21 pm Of all the things that put me off getting a BEV the public charging is the most important. I’m aware it’s getting better, but so many seem to require a membership, an app or a card. It should be as easy as buying petrol. Tap a card to a terminal, done. By all means offer a better rate to members, but absolutely anyone should be able to get a charge from any station, there should be no barrier to entry beyond the ability to pay and having a compatible socket.

They are making smart chargers where you don't even need to do that, just plug it in and it has a chat to your car about how it should be paid for and gets on with it. The standard is fairly recent though.

So this would be a new standard which none of the current standards are compatible with?

All we need is that (a) the plug is the same, (b) there's 50 kW of power available, (c) it has a f.cking credit/debit card reader attached, and (d) there's enough of them; all this Oh BuT It TALKs tO YOuR CAr ABouT THe BeST way to USe YoU BaTTerY tO ManAGE peaK Load WHILe OpTImiZiNg yoUR jOURney ExpeRieNCe is software w.nkery.

Europe has pretty much settled on CCS standard for the physical plug, even Tesla. 50+ kW chargers are becoming increasingly common in places that need them. The payment randomness does suck, and yes there need to be more of them. The payment standard I referred to is a communications protocol separate to the physical plug.

dyqik wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:16 am Ah, the confidence of a mediocre man on a forum with no relevant expertise who knows the national electricity supply capacity better than National Grid, and has thoughts based on the close textual intepretation of a few paragraphs aimed at the general public, with minimal presentation of detailed numbers.

It was offered in evidence, so I scrutinised it. Are you suggesting it should be beyond questioning, and if so on what grounds?