Scrutable

Meh. India Willoughby is an absolute bellend at the best of times. Would probably call India she or at least a neutral they out of consistency but won’t lose too much sleep and her being upset.

IvanV wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:03 pm

shpalman wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 11:45 am In the particular case of chess there doesn't seem to be any difference in ability once you take into account the smaller statistics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_chess

In August 2023, FIDE attracted heavy criticism for issuing an order banning transgender women from women's competitions. This was seen by many chess players as having no purpose other than to discriminate against transgender women, as unlike physical sports, there are no concerns about biological advantages. American Woman Grandmaster Jennifer Shahade commented "It's obvious they didn't consult with any transgender players in constructing it... I strongly urge FIDE to reverse course on this and start from scratch with better consultants." French transgender player Yosha Iglesias, who holds the title of FIDE Master, described the new regulations as "unfair, exclusive, and discriminatory", saying they were contrary to the IOC guidelines that FIDE had signed up to.

Chess was practically a Soviet monopoly during the cold war. And today still FIDE is still alleged to be in Russia's pocket. The current president, Arkady Dvorkovich, was previously deputy president of Russia. His predecessor was Kirsan Ilyumzhinov, president of Kalkykia, a Russian "republic", ie semi-autonomous region. And his predecessor, a Filipino, Florencio Campomanes, "Campo", who was appointed in 1982, was corrupt and in the pocket of the Russians. He is dead, so people don't even bother saying "allegedly" any more. Back in Campo's day, there was a fairly obvious vote-buying system to get lots of small countries to vote like Campo wanted.

It is not surprising that the policies of FIDE in this mirror those of Russia rather than the wider world.

FIDE remains in firm control of the world championship, and through its recognition by the IOC, the chess Olympiads. It runs the rating system, and so forth. The rules for things like the world championship keep on changing in response to events, presumably to the convenience of FIDE's own interests. People complain they are mad, but I don't think they care. Fortunately, the great quantity of other competitive chess that goes on happens somewhat regardless of FIDE. The emergence of internet chess giants like chess.com and lichess.com, which have become de facto standards regardless of FIDE, mean that its practical relevance is reduced, as these powerful organisations take little notice of it.

So in practice Iglesias is able to compete in (many) women's events. Despite FIDE's position, she is listed in FIDE's ratings system as a woman. In January she achieved the requirements to become a Women's International Master, the next step up from FIDE Master. Such titles are subject to confirmation by FIDE, which takes a little while to come through. So we will see if that just goes through automatically, or whether FIDE decides to go grandstanding about it.

Just a little update on this. Yosha Iglesias is now shown on the FIDE website as a Women's International Master. So FIDE did confirm the title she qualified for, despite their stated policies.

Speaking of conflating terms and confusion...

In blood typing, you can have one parent who's type O and the other AB. Normally offspring will then inherit one O and one of either A or B from each parent. However, it's possible to have both A and B on the same chromosome, referred to as cis-AB. Similarly the way trans fats are bonded and discussed.

So how are heterosexuals referred to as cis, when that indicates same for blood types and chromosomes? Trans indication of different? Or is that gender identity? Or biological sex? Or how else are we supposed to be considering (or conflating) cis and trans? And what are the ramifications thereof? (That might be a doozy of a question)

I'm not being obtuse or trying to stir up sh.t. It's just that there's little overlap between my daily existence and the complicated aspects of this part of society. And obviously I don't want to be guilty of any hate crimes

Note I don't have animosity towards anyone in this realm. Live and let live.

From Latin 'cis' means "on this side", whereas 'trans' means "on the other side". So, from Latin cis- and trans- have opposite meanings.

However, in sexuality, I'd have thought that 'trans' come from an abbreviation of either transvestite or transformation. And the idea of being cis-male or cis-female is more of a pseudo-scientific construction to try and differ from being gay or transgender so they lit upon the 'opposite' of trans to describe themselves as cis.

This means that (as far as I'm aware) the use of cis- and trans- in science and culture wars are different things and we shouldn't waste brain power trying to justify the similarity.

The "trans" in the case of trans-fats refers to the geometry on either side of a double carbon carbon bond, and "cis" really is the opposite of that in the organic chemistry sense.

But nobody thinks that intersexual people are distinguished from everyone else by the geometry of a molecule with a double carbon carbon bond somewhere in it because they aren't morons and can understand a word having different meanings in different contexts.

shpalman wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 7:41 am The "trans" in the case of trans-fats refers to the geometry on either side of a double carbon carbon bond, and "cis" really is the opposite of that in the organic chemistry sense.

But nobody thinks that intersexual people are distinguished from everyone else by the geometry of a molecule with a double carbon carbon bond somewhere in it because they aren't morons and can understand a word having different meanings in different contexts.

What do intersex people have to do with this?

Jesus Christ

Is there a rule or law similar to the 2nd law of thermodynamics where the general amount of stupidity must always increase?

Al Capone Junior wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 4:00 am So how are heterosexuals referred to as cis

They aren't.
Sexuality (heterosexual vs homosexual vs bisexual vs asexual) is not the same as gender identity (trans vs cis).

Al Capone Junior wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 3:49 pm Jesus Christ

Is there a rule or law similar to the 2nd law of thermodynamics where the general amount of stupidity must always increase?

What’s this in reference to?

Tristan wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 8:33 am

shpalman wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 7:41 am The "trans" in the case of trans-fats refers to the geometry on either side of a double carbon carbon bond, and "cis" really is the opposite of that in the organic chemistry sense.

But nobody thinks that intersexual people are distinguished from everyone else by the geometry of a molecule with a double carbon carbon bond somewhere in it because they aren't morons and can understand a word having different meanings in different contexts.

What do intersex people have to do with this?

Whatever, put the correct term in there for whatever trans refers to, I literally cannot be bothered to argue.

shpalman wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 9:46 pm

Tristan wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 8:33 am

shpalman wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 7:41 am The "trans" in the case of trans-fats refers to the geometry on either side of a double carbon carbon bond, and "cis" really is the opposite of that in the organic chemistry sense.

But nobody thinks that intersexual people are distinguished from everyone else by the geometry of a molecule with a double carbon carbon bond somewhere in it because they aren't morons and can understand a word having different meanings in different contexts.

What do intersex people have to do with this?

Whatever, put the correct term in there for whatever trans refers to, I literally cannot be bothered to argue.

They’re two very different things.

So, correct me.

shpalman wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 7:05 am So, correct me.

Terminology is confusing to many people, and thorough understanding is not widespread. It is an area with recent development in both art and terminology. There are many useful Wikipedia articles on the terms transgender, transsexual, gender identity, sexual assignment, sex (biological trait) and intersex which can help improve understanding. I have found these and other materials helpful in informing myself over the years.

I shall present meanings as they are taken in technical terminology, and they will be used with such meaning in careful writing. But informal usage may differ.

Trans, today, is generally taken as short for transgender. This is a relatively recent term. It was coined, originally in a German form and a parallel English term created, in the 1990s by analogy with the much older term transsexual. Transsexual was a term coined, again initially in a German form, in the 1920s, and is today used to refer to a narrower class of people than the term transgender.

Transgender - at least as technical terminology - means having a gender identity different from the sex assigned at birth. It has nothing to do with sexual preferences or transvestism, although clearly some people may confuse a transgender person with a transvestite.

Transsexual - at least as technical terminology - means a transgender person who wishes to transition.

These two terms relate to gender identity, not physical characteristics. Intersex refers to physical characteristics.

Intersex means having physical sexual characteristics that are inconsistent with what is expected in terms of the typical binary division of male and female. For example, there are some people who have sex chromosomes that do not match their genitalia. But that is just one of many intersex conditions, and a relatively rare one. This is clearly quite different from being transgender. Perhaps surprisingly, intersex people are mostly not transgender, and so mostly are content with a gender identity that matches the sex assigned at birth. Caster Semenya is a case in point. But not all are. Some people's intersex condition is sufficiently obvious at birth it is not easy to assign them a sex at birth, but again that is a relatively rare case.

Many of these terms use the Latin prefix trans- meaning across, through, opposite, over, outside, beyond, etc. For example transfer from Latin transferre to carry across. Many older people may indeed confuse trans with terms such as transvestite (trans+vestire ie cross-dress), or be unaware that transgender is today the more general term rather than transsexual, since transgender is a relatively modern piece of terminology.

Cis- is the Latin converse of trans-. Its use in the term cisgender, abbreviated to cis, has nothing to do with the use of cis- and trans- in chemistry, which are specific terms of art taken from the same origins, or other uses of the prefixes cis- and trans-. Cis- is a relatively rare prefix, perhaps the best known example outside chemistry is Cisalpine Gaul, the (surprisingly extensive) area of the Italian peninsular occupied by Celtic peoples around 2000 years ago, so called as it is on the same side of the Alps as Rome. It contrasts with Transalpine Gaul, which we normally just call Gaul, the other side of the Alps from Rome. I think some people are upset to be referred to as cisgender, perhaps thinking that it is somehow pejorative to have a word for the absence of a condition that, at least until recently, seemed to be very rare. They might think, why do we need to specifically have such a word, when there are so many other conditions that do not have specific words for their absence. But the widespread use of terms such as "neurotypical" shows that we can reasonably require such words and there is nothing pejorative about them. Although plainly any word can in context be used pejoratively by some who want to.