Scrutable

sheldrake wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:40 pm

dyqik wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:36 pm Nope. The trick is to not demand objectivity from things that aren't objective.

Would you abandon university examinations?

What makes you think university exams are an objective measure that stand alone as a measure of an education?

dyqik wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:56 pm What makes you think university exams are an objective measure that stand alone as a measure of an education?

I didn't say I thought that, but I am curious whether you think the results tell us anything useful at all.

sheldrake wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:02 pm

dyqik wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:56 pm What makes you think university exams are an objective measure that stand alone as a measure of an education?

I didn't say I thought that, but I am curious whether you think the results tell us anything useful at all.

You're going to have to explain how you think university exam results can be used as an objective measure of efficiency in schools.

Or even GCSE or SAT results.

dyqik wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:03 pm

sheldrake wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:02 pm

dyqik wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:56 pm What makes you think university exams are an objective measure that stand alone as a measure of an education?

I didn't say I thought that, but I am curious whether you think the results tell us anything useful at all.

You're going to have to explain how you think university exam results can be used as an objective measure of efficiency in schools.

Or even GCSE or SAT results.

I think it's unfair of you to answer a question with a question.

sheldrake wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:14 pm

dyqik wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:03 pm

sheldrake wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:02 pm

I didn't say I thought that, but I am curious whether you think the results tell us anything useful at all.

You're going to have to explain how you think university exam results can be used as an objective measure of efficiency in schools.

Or even GCSE or SAT results.

I think it's unfair of you to answer a question with a question.

Ok, I won't answer your apparent non-sequitur at all then.

dyqik wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:36 pm Ok, I won't answer your apparent non-sequitur at all then.

I didn't make a statement, I asked a question. I am genuinely surprised that you seem to think it's impossible to objectively assess educational progress and I wanted to see if you extend that to thinking exams are a waste of time.

sheldrake wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:44 pm

dyqik wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:36 pm Ok, I won't answer your apparent non-sequitur at all then.

I didn't make a statement, I asked a question. I am genuinely surprised that you seem to think it's impossible to objectively assess educational progress and I wanted to see if you extend that to thinking exams are a waste of time.

And I reject the premise of your question.

You seem fairly confused here - you are begging the question by assuming that educational progress or attainment as measured by exams is an appropriate input to defining efficiency in the educational system, and that either can be measured objectively.

And no, exams do not measure either objectively. There's always subjective bias in examinations, even more so in university examinations than school examinations. But that does not mean they are without value. It's just that the results have to be weighed subjectively in a wider context.

dyqik wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:08 am You seem fairly confused here - you are begging the question by assuming that educational progress or attainment as measured by exams is an appropriate input to defining efficiency in the educational system, and that either can be measured objectively.

I think objective measures are needed to define efficiency, yes. I also think that the thing we need to try and objectively measure is children's educational progress.

Efficiency measures also essential if people want to be able to make claims about underfunding that have any kind of objective basis.

And no, exams do not measure either objectively. There's always subjective bias in examinations, even more so in university examinations than school examinations. But that does not mean they are without value. It's just that the results have to be weighed subjectively in a wider context.

I'm not asking about the nuances of interpreting a given individual's result. I'm talking about results across large samples of people. I don't think the subjective biases you describe are important from that perspective.

How are you combining individuals results into an average? That's a value laden subjective decision.

dyqik wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:42 am How are you combining individuals results into an average? That's a value laden subjective decision.

I think it's okay as long as you're aware of the potential bias and then use a consistent method rather than endlessly tuning it to get the result you want each year. There's little else you can do in the real world, and it's better than not trying at all.

sheldrake wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:56 am

dyqik wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:42 am How are you combining individuals results into an average? That's a value laden subjective decision.

I think it's okay as long as you're aware of the potential bias and then use a consistent method rather than endlessly tuning it to get the result you want each year. There's little else you can do in the real world, and it's better than not trying at all.

Ok.

Do you understand that assessments of educational progress are subjective, and have well known biases? That what you choose to lump together into a measure of educational progress is a subjective decision? And may not be what the parents and/or pupils at particular school want from their school? And that individual schools can serve very disparate communities within a school, and different schools scan can serve very different communities? And that those communities need different levels of resourcing to meet specific needs?

And that what you are describing is roughly the current system, which is hopelessly gamed to the point that it is not objective or useful? And that any "objective" measure will be gamed?

What subjective assessment of schools does is force you to confront and justify the biases in your "objective" measures in the context of a particular school and environment. And that's a far better and more useful assessment than trying to blindly apply an "objective" measure across schools.

sheldrake wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:56 am

dyqik wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:42 am How are you combining individuals results into an average? That's a value laden subjective decision.

I think it's okay as long as you're aware of the potential bias and then use a consistent method rather than endlessly tuning it to get the result you want each year. There's little else you can do in the real world, and it's better than not trying at all.

Remind us what you're aiming to get an objective measure for.

dyqik wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:54 pm Also, you've left out the feelings, aims and goals of the person being educated.

Ah. Well, I’m in my fifties and we are all captive to our own history. The feelings, aims and goals of the person being educated just didn’t come into it when I was at school. So I hope I can be forgiven for not thinking of those.

But now you mention it, that’s something I think is a good thing.

dyqik wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:38 am
Do you understand that assessments of educational progress are subjective, and have well known biases? That what you choose to lump together into a measure of educational progress is a subjective decision? And may not be what the parents and/or pupils at particular school want from their school? And that individual schools can serve very disparate communities within a school, and different schools scan can serve very different communities? And that those communities need different levels of resourcing to meet specific needs?

And that what you are describing is roughly the current system, which is hopelessly gamed to the point that it is not objective or useful? And that any "objective" measure will be gamed?

What subjective assessment of schools does is force you to confront and justify the biases in your "objective" measures in the context of a particular school and environment. And that's a far better and more useful assessment than trying to blindly apply an "objective" measure across schools.

So you're in favour of parental choice with voucher schemes in secondary schooling?

sheldrake wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:51 am

dyqik wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:38 am
Do you understand that assessments of educational progress are subjective, and have well known biases? That what you choose to lump together into a measure of educational progress is a subjective decision? And may not be what the parents and/or pupils at particular school want from their school? And that individual schools can serve very disparate communities within a school, and different schools scan can serve very different communities? And that those communities need different levels of resourcing to meet specific needs?

And that what you are describing is roughly the current system, which is hopelessly gamed to the point that it is not objective or useful? And that any "objective" measure will be gamed?

What subjective assessment of schools does is force you to confront and justify the biases in your "objective" measures in the context of a particular school and environment. And that's a far better and more useful assessment than trying to blindly apply an "objective" measure across schools.

So you're in favour of parental choice with voucher schemes in secondary schooling?

No, nothing I said implies that.

dyqik wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:57 am

sheldrake wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:51 am

dyqik wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:38 am
Do you understand that assessments of educational progress are subjective, and have well known biases? That what you choose to lump together into a measure of educational progress is a subjective decision? And may not be what the parents and/or pupils at particular school want from their school? And that individual schools can serve very disparate communities within a school, and different schools scan can serve very different communities? And that those communities need different levels of resourcing to meet specific needs?

And that what you are describing is roughly the current system, which is hopelessly gamed to the point that it is not objective or useful? And that any "objective" measure will be gamed?

What subjective assessment of schools does is force you to confront and justify the biases in your "objective" measures in the context of a particular school and environment. And that's a far better and more useful assessment than trying to blindly apply an "objective" measure across schools.

So you're in favour of parental choice with voucher schemes in secondary schooling?

No, nothing I said implies that.

You just said that subjective choice is more important than trying to create objective measures of educational attainment.

People who can afford to educate their children privately get to exercise their subjective assessment of educational quality. How do you propose ordinary people exercise subjective choice in secondary education without such schemes ?

sheldrake wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:20 pm

dyqik wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:57 am

sheldrake wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:51 am

So you're in favour of parental choice with voucher schemes in secondary schooling?

No, nothing I said implies that.

You just said that subjective choice is more important than trying to create objective measures of educational attainment.

People who can afford to educate their children privately get to exercise their subjective assessment of educational quality. How do you propose ordinary people exercise subjective choice in secondary education without such schemes ?

I didn't say that.

Why do you think a measure that claims to be "objective" is better than explicitly subjective measures in determining the performance of something that has no unique and universally agreed aims?

dyqik wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:45 pm

sheldrake wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:20 pm

dyqik wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:57 am

No, nothing I said implies that.

You just said that subjective choice is more important than trying to create objective measures of educational attainment.

People who can afford to educate their children privately get to exercise their subjective assessment of educational quality. How do you propose ordinary people exercise subjective choice in secondary education without such schemes ?

I didn't say that.

Why do you think a measure that claims to be "objective" is better than explicitly subjective measures in determining the performance of something that has no unique and universally agreed aims?

Because we don't have a way for the pupils and parents to apply any kind of subjective measure in the quality of their education unless they're wealthy enough to go private, and letting the providers rate themselves subjectively is problematic for obvious reasons.

How do the stats for private education compare? I don't think uni admissions are a useful metric although uni results might be. Where's Ken, anyway?

plodder wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:17 pm How do the stats for private education compare?

They're generally higher for GCSE and A-level grades, but this is sometimes gamed by the use of admission tests and them kicking out kids who they think will bring the average down. Even cheap ones cost about 3 times as much as the spend-per-pupil in the state sector (and you pay it out of your post-tax income). They also tend to have a better variety of sports and foreign languages on offer, better facilities and healthier food served at lunch.

What they also allow is a degree of parental choice and shopping around, so if the parent wants something fierce and uber-traditional (Gordonstoun say) or something very liberal (a Montessori school or something like it) it's up to them, pretty much like a paying customer. This allows exactly the kind of per-pupil subjective educational choices that Dyqik says he supports, but it's only available to those wealthy enough. That's why I asked him if he supports vouchers so that everybody else could exercise this kind of choice.

Gfamily wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:50 am

sheldrake wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:56 am

dyqik wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:42 am How are you combining individuals results into an average? That's a value laden subjective decision.

I think it's okay as long as you're aware of the potential bias and then use a consistent method rather than endlessly tuning it to get the result you want each year. There's little else you can do in the real world, and it's better than not trying at all.

Remind us what you're aiming to get an objective measure for.

How long a series of almost, but not entirely, unrelated questions can be continued despite the best attempts of several folk to answer them. While the rest of us wander off, as we saw this lot happen before...

No, I have nothing sensible to contribute aside from pointing out that we've seen all this before and it didn't seem to get anyone anywhere fast then.

Gordonstoun is not traditional.

Eton is. Gordonstoun certainly paid little attention to exam results

I didn't go to either, I'm sure you are right.

sheldrake wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:36 pm This allows exactly the kind of per-pupil subjective educational choices that Dyqik says he supports

No, it's the kind of choice you said he said he supports. A common theme.

jimbob wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:07 pm Gordonstoun is not traditional.

Eton is. Gordonstoun certainly paid little attention to exam results

There are a number of public schools designed for the thick offspring of rich people, I think this is one of them.