Scrutable

lpm wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:54 pm I read it was Switchblades.

Good against a lorry full of Chinese MREs? How armoured are fuel trucks against a grenade sized explosion?

Stranger Mouse wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:05 pm Russians have destroyed a theatre where hundreds of people were sheltering https://twitter.com/krishgm/status/1504 ... 18466?s=21

TopBadger wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:29 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:19 pm
Their fascination with display extends to lots of video of their troops doing unarmed combat (generally useless on a battlefield) using flashy karate techniques like hard blocks and high/jumping kicks. As far as I am aware most forces around the world keep their unarmed combat training to a few tried and tested basic techniques but a flying side kick will be about as much use to a soldier as Kleenex body armour but will take a lot of time and training when they could be learning something useful.

Maybe the Russians have been watching too many action hero movies where the good (western) guy throws away their perfectly working gun so they can settle things with their fists instead... and mistaken this for western military doctrine.

Stranger Mouse wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:35 pm

TopBadger wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:29 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:19 pm
Their fascination with display extends to lots of video of their troops doing unarmed combat (generally useless on a battlefield) using flashy karate techniques like hard blocks and high/jumping kicks. As far as I am aware most forces around the world keep their unarmed combat training to a few tried and tested basic techniques but a flying side kick will be about as much use to a soldier as Kleenex body armour but will take a lot of time and training when they could be learning something useful.

Maybe the Russians have been watching too many action hero movies where the good (western) guy throws away their perfectly working gun so they can settle things with their fists instead... and mistaken this for western military doctrine.

Possibly.

This video is quite something. From 1:50 it reaches whole new levels of WTF. The comments are quite something though, including “this video isn’t at all realistic because none of the Russian troops are on fire”

https://youtu.be/0rAHrHd2lcw

According to Russia, the theater bomb shelter was the headquarters of the Azov Battalion in Mariupol.

The operating hospital and maternity ward bombed a few days ago, was also the headquarters of the Azov Battalion in Mariupol.

The next major civilian target they destroy will be the headquarters of the Azov Battalion in Mariupol too. It's Azov Battalion headquarters all the way down.

jimbob wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:38 pm From Checkmite on ISF

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... st13758383

According to Russia, the theater bomb shelter was the headquarters of the Azov Battalion in Mariupol.

The operating hospital and maternity ward bombed a few days ago, was also the headquarters of the Azov Battalion in Mariupol.

The next major civilian target they destroy will be the headquarters of the Azov Battalion in Mariupol too. It's Azov Battalion headquarters all the way down.

Ukraine and Russia have made significant progress on a tentative peace plan including a ceasefire and Russian withdrawal if Kyiv declares neutrality and accepts limits on its armed forces, according to five people briefed on the talks.

Ukrainian and Russian negotiators discussed the proposed deal in full for the first time on Monday, said two of the people. The 15-point draft would involve Kyiv renouncing its ambitions to join Nato and promising not to host foreign military bases or weaponry in exchange for protection from allies such as the US, UK and Turkey, the people said.

However, the nature of western guarantees for Ukrainian security — and their acceptability to Moscow — could prove to be a big obstacle to any deal, as could the status of the country’s territories seized by Russia and its proxies in 2014. A 1994 agreement underpinning Ukrainian security failed to prevent the Kremlin’s aggression against its neighbour.

“Every side needs a win,” the person said. “He needs to be able to sell it to the people. Putin can say that we wanted to stop Ukraine joining Nato and putting foreign bases and missiles in its territory. If they do that, he can say, ‘I got it.’”

plodder wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:31 pm

jimbob wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:43 pm Russia is indeed a massive country. And its armed forces are nearly 5x the size of the UK's for example. And, unlike the UK, it has an indigenous stealth fighter in service and hypersonic missiles, competing with the US in terms of technology. Like the UK, it has an aircraft carrier.

...Whilst having a GDP about half that of the UK and a defence budget similar to the UK.


In light of these last two facts, it seems as though Russia has concentrated on flashy wunderwaffe that appeal to dictators and look good for May Day parades, whilst neglecting the boring systems that actually allow one to use the weapons effectively in the first place.

It could also be that UK defense procurement is inefficient compared to Russia's. I mean, it's a possibility, right? Kick-back central, jobs for the boys, rampant stupidity? There are loads of stories of British kit being bl..dy useless.

Herainestold wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:16 pm Peace talks ...

Ukraine and Russia have made significant progress on a tentative peace plan including a ceasefire and Russian withdrawal if Kyiv declares neutrality and accepts limits on its armed forces, according to five people briefed on the talks.

Ukrainian and Russian negotiators discussed the proposed deal in full for the first time on Monday, said two of the people. The 15-point draft would involve Kyiv renouncing its ambitions to join Nato and promising not to host foreign military bases or weaponry in exchange for protection from allies such as the US, UK and Turkey, the people said.

However, the nature of western guarantees for Ukrainian security — and their acceptability to Moscow — could prove to be a big obstacle to any deal, as could the status of the country’s territories seized by Russia and its proxies in 2014. A 1994 agreement underpinning Ukrainian security failed to prevent the Kremlin’s aggression against its neighbour.

“Every side needs a win,” the person said. “He needs to be able to sell it to the people. Putin can say that we wanted to stop Ukraine joining Nato and putting foreign bases and missiles in its territory. If they do that, he can say, ‘I got it.’”

https://www.ft.com/content/7b341e46-d37 ... 2b7fa77ef1

Briefly. FT published a draft, which represents the requesting position of the Russian side. Nothing more. The side has its own positions. The only thing we confirm at this stage is a ceasefire, withdrawal of Russian troops and security guarantees from a number of countries

Stranger Mouse wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:05 pm Russians have destroyed a theatre where hundreds of people were sheltering https://twitter.com/krishgm/status/1504 ... 18466?s=21

EACLucifer wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:39 pm The side has its own positions. The only thing we confirm at this stage is a ceasefire, withdrawal of Russian troops and security guarantees from a number of countries[/url]

jimbob wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:38 pm From Checkmite on ISF

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... st13758383

According to Russia, the theater bomb shelter was the headquarters of the Azov Battalion in Mariupol.

The operating hospital and maternity ward bombed a few days ago, was also the headquarters of the Azov Battalion in Mariupol.

The next major civilian target they destroy will be the headquarters of the Azov Battalion in Mariupol too. It's Azov Battalion headquarters all the way down.

sTeamTraen wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:48 pm

EACLucifer wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:39 pm The side has its own positions. The only thing we confirm at this stage is a ceasefire, withdrawal of Russian troops and security guarantees from a number of countries[/url]

How big a deal is Crimea for Ukraine? As I understand it, it only got transferred to the Ukrainian SSR from the RSFSR as part of some kind of post-Stalin dealings by Khruschev, which probably made very little difference to the people who were now just being run by a different branch of the Communist party. And when you go back in the earlier history of the whole region it always seems like everyone used to rule everyone else at some time or other </man_in_pub>. I wonder if Zelensky might let Crimea go if the Russians left Donbas with their tails between their legs?

WFJ wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:55 pm

sTeamTraen wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:48 pm

EACLucifer wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:39 pm The side has its own positions. The only thing we confirm at this stage is a ceasefire, withdrawal of Russian troops and security guarantees from a number of countries[/url]

How big a deal is Crimea for Ukraine? As I understand it, it only got transferred to the Ukrainian SSR from the RSFSR as part of some kind of post-Stalin dealings by Khruschev, which probably made very little difference to the people who were now just being run by a different branch of the Communist party. And when you go back in the earlier history of the whole region it always seems like everyone used to rule everyone else at some time or other </man_in_pub>. I wonder if Zelensky might let Crimea go if the Russians left Donbas with their tails between their legs?

The 2014 referendum was dodgy as f.ck, but there's not really any doubt that a fair referendum would have shown a majority in favour of joining Russia.

EACLucifer wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:58 pm

WFJ wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:55 pm

sTeamTraen wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:48 pm

How big a deal is Crimea for Ukraine? As I understand it, it only got transferred to the Ukrainian SSR from the RSFSR as part of some kind of post-Stalin dealings by Khruschev, which probably made very little difference to the people who were now just being run by a different branch of the Communist party. And when you go back in the earlier history of the whole region it always seems like everyone used to rule everyone else at some time or other </man_in_pub>. I wonder if Zelensky might let Crimea go if the Russians left Donbas with their tails between their legs?

The 2014 referendum was dodgy as f.ck, but there's not really any doubt that a fair referendum would have shown a majority in favour of joining Russia.

Crimea had a fair referendum, and chose to go with Ukraine.

Woodchopper wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:04 pm

EACLucifer wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:58 pm

WFJ wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:55 pm

The 2014 referendum was dodgy as f.ck, but there's not really any doubt that a fair referendum would have shown a majority in favour of joining Russia.

Crimea had a fair referendum, and chose to go with Ukraine.

You mean in 1991? There was a narrow majority in favour in the Ukrainian independence referendum. But the population wasn’t given the option of voting to be part of an independent Russia.

WFJ wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:49 pm

jimbob wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:38 pm From Checkmite on ISF

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... st13758383

According to Russia, the theater bomb shelter was the headquarters of the Azov Battalion in Mariupol.

The operating hospital and maternity ward bombed a few days ago, was also the headquarters of the Azov Battalion in Mariupol.

The next major civilian target they destroy will be the headquarters of the Azov Battalion in Mariupol too. It's Azov Battalion headquarters all the way down.

Unfortunately that's not just a common Russian excuse. It's a favourite of the US and Israelian military too, and probably every other military that ever bombs civilians.

EACLucifer wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:06 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:04 pm

EACLucifer wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:58 pm

Crimea had a fair referendum, and chose to go with Ukraine.

You mean in 1991? There was a narrow majority in favour in the Ukrainian independence referendum. But the population wasn’t given the option of voting to be part of an independent Russia.

The Russian Federation, however, is the successor to the Soviet Union. Sanctions should stay on until all Russian forces are out of Ukraine.

EACLucifer wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:06 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:04 pm

EACLucifer wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:58 pm

Crimea had a fair referendum, and chose to go with Ukraine.

You mean in 1991? There was a narrow majority in favour in the Ukrainian independence referendum. But the population wasn’t given the option of voting to be part of an independent Russia.

The Russian Federation, however, is the successor to the Soviet Union. Sanctions should stay on until all Russian forces are out of Ukraine.

Woodchopper wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:24 pm

EACLucifer wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:06 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:04 pm

You mean in 1991? There was a narrow majority in favour in the Ukrainian independence referendum. But the population wasn’t given the option of voting to be part of an independent Russia.

The Russian Federation, however, is the successor to the Soviet Union. Sanctions should stay on until all Russian forces are out of Ukraine.

I don’t disagree regarding the sanctions. Just pointing out that we don’t have a vote in which the Crimean population decided between Ukraine or Russia.

Bird on a Fire wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:14 pm

WFJ wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:49 pm

jimbob wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:38 pm From Checkmite on ISF

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... st13758383

Unfortunately that's not just a common Russian excuse. It's a favourite of the US and Israelian military too, and probably every other military that ever bombs civilians.

Yes. I know I've said it before, but it does sometimes feel a bit like watching e.g. a western invasion of the middle east from the other perspective (except that the invaders and invaded are much more evenly matched in this case). "Let's do a regime change!" says some faraway maniac. "I stand with the insurgents!" responds the invaded country's neighbours. It's not hard to understand why there's lingering resentment towards the west in so much of the world.

But it is weird to see people flip-flop from being defending military targetting civilian areas possibly harbouring "terrorists" to being outraged by military targetting civilian areas possibly harbouring "terrorists" depending on whose military it is. It's not like the Azov Battallion are nice guys. Wonder if people will get deplatformed for sharing a stage with them/their supporters in future.