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Sub-$100/kWhr batteries
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:53 pm
by Grumble
https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/22/2144 ... -elon-musk
I don’t know if this link will update with all the information, I just watched Tesla’s battery presentation and the article linked currently only mentions the first part - tabless batteries. Altogether the improvements they claim will make battery cost fall by 56%, which given people estimate Tesla batteries are currently about $150/kWhr would bring us to about $70. Even if they don’t get all the way there we could break through that $100 barrier which gets touted as a tipping point for affordability of electric cars.
Re: Sub-$100/kWhr batteries
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:19 pm
by EACLucifer
Grumble wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:53 pm
https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/22/2144 ... -elon-musk
I don’t know if this link will update with all the information, I just watched Tesla’s battery presentation and the article linked currently only mentions the first part - tabless batteries. Altogether the improvements they claim will make battery cost fall by 56%, which given people estimate Tesla batteries are currently about $150/kWhr would bring us to about $70. Even if they don’t get all the way there we could break through that $100 barrier which gets touted as a tipping point for affordability of electric cars.
On the other hand, it's from a firm run by a lying stock manipulator who once did a presentation where he told everyone the buildings around them were running on solar panels built into the roof tiles, and it was all entirely fake.
Re: Sub-$100/kWhr batteries
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:37 am
by Grumble
Here’s a link with a roundup of the announcements:
https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/22/2145 ... balt-plaid
EACL, anything to say about batteries? These are a pretty big deal IMO.
Re: Sub-$100/kWhr batteries
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:23 am
by Grumble
Here’s an explainer of what a tabless electrode is
https://youtu.be/y9S1MCaiB5c
Re: Sub-$100/kWhr batteries
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:07 am
by bjn
EACLucifer wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:19 pm
Grumble wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:53 pm
https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/22/2144 ... -elon-musk
I don’t know if this link will update with all the information, I just watched Tesla’s battery presentation and the article linked currently only mentions the first part - tabless batteries. Altogether the improvements they claim will make battery cost fall by 56%, which given people estimate Tesla batteries are currently about $150/kWhr would bring us to about $70. Even if they don’t get all the way there we could break through that $100 barrier which gets touted as a tipping point for affordability of electric cars.
On the other hand, it's from a firm run by a lying stock manipulator who once did a presentation where he told everyone the buildings around them were running on solar panels built into the roof tiles, and it was all entirely fake.
Nonetheless Tesla generally delivers on their products, but usually to a delayed timetable. The $35,000 Model 3 actually happened as promised. The fully automated self driving car thing is still b.llsh.t though.
Regardless, the change in battery technology seems to be significant, and I'm surprised no-one thought of it earlier.
Re: Sub-$100/kWhr batteries
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:36 pm
by Grumble
One of Tesla’s boasts about the new battery was that it had 5x the capacity. The volume is 5.5x so this isn’t really surprising!
Re: Sub-$100/kWhr batteries
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:40 pm
by bjn
Ars has an article that covers the announced battery tech.
Cost reductions through incremental improvements, but the stated 56% reduction over 3 years is inline with the cost reductions we've seen in the recent past. Other folks are also working on similar incremental improvements and should also see cost declines.
One of the things they are aiming to do is remove the drying step from battery production, which has a high energy cost. So also lowering the environmental foot print of production.
Re: Sub-$100/kWhr batteries
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:39 am
by bjn
Ars Technica has some in depth coverage on Tesla's announcement.
Re: Sub-$100/kWhr batteries
Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:27 am
by Grumble
I wonder how independent all the announcements were from each other. The tabless battery architecture is surely quite independent of the chemistry and is a genuine advance. The use of the battery as a structural component of a vehicle is dependent on the battery design though. A larger diameter tube is significantly stiffer and I expect it’s this factor that has enabled the structural use, but it probably can’t be used in existing car designs.
Re: Sub-$100/kWhr batteries
Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:51 am
by Martin Y
I think I must be missing something because I have the impression capacitors have been made that way for ages. When you have two conductive layers with a separator and roll them up, leaving an offset so each layer sticks out to one side but not the other means you can bond an end cap to each. It seems kinda obvious.i must be missing something.
Re: Sub-$100/kWhr batteries
Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:41 pm
by Grumble
Martin Y wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:51 am
I think I must be missing something because I have the impression capacitors have been made that way for ages. When you have two conductive layers with a separator and roll them up, leaving an offset so each layer sticks out to one side but not the other means you can bond an end cap to each. It seems kinda obvious.i must be missing something.
Certainly obvious in hindsight. I can only think there’s an element of overcoming a long established design.
Re: Sub-$100/kWhr batteries
Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:48 pm
by Boustrophedon
It all comes down to "Schoopage". Not new in battery construction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYP1sIu ... livedotcom
Re: Sub-$100/kWhr batteries
Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:49 pm
by dyqik
Grumble wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:41 pm
Martin Y wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:51 am
I think I must be missing something because I have the impression capacitors have been made that way for ages. When you have two conductive layers with a separator and roll them up, leaving an offset so each layer sticks out to one side but not the other means you can bond an end cap to each. It seems kinda obvious.i must be missing something.
Certainly obvious in hindsight. I can only think there’s an element of overcoming a long established design.
Capacitors don't generally require the current densities that batteries do, and don't contain the chemicals that batteries do, so you may not be able to directly take a capacitor manufacturing technique and use it in a reliable battery.
Re: Sub-$100/kWhr batteries
Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:50 pm
by Grumble
From that video it seemed like it was new in battery construction but not capacitors, and that one key difference is that capacitors don’t have an electrolyte to worry about.
Re: Sub-$100/kWhr batteries
Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:23 pm
by Boustrophedon
Grumble wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:50 pm
From that video it seemed like it was new in battery construction but not capacitors, and that one key difference is that capacitors don’t have an electrolyte to worry about.
Electrolytic capacitors do.
Re: Sub-$100/kWhr batteries
Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:34 pm
by Martin Y
I think it's probably fair to assume this won't be a case of nobody having thought of it before, but rather nobody having overcome various IABMCTT technical hurdles before.