Scrutable

Posted: **Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:59 am**

Interesting piece by the Angry Chef on empathy and the autism spectrum.

https://angry-chef.com/blog/empathy

Although this is a departure from his usual material, like the good skeptic he is, there's also a bit of debunking:

As you are dozing through the Power Point slides, you may spot one claiming that only 7% of our communication is achieved through the words we say, with 93% coming from non-verbal means such as body language (55%) and tone of voice (38%). At this point, if you want to get along in the corporate world, my top tip is to keep your f.cking mouth shut. Resist any temptation to jolt out of your stupor and call b.llsh.t, even though these often regurgitated ‘facts’ are arse-gravy of the highest order.

I'm wondering about the 4 stages of empathy that he describes.

Empathy is best described as a four stage process, the first of which is an ability to notice someone is having an emotional reaction. The second stage requires the observer to correctly interpret that reaction, translating the words, facial expressions, body language and vocalisations they are seeing into a defined emotional state.

The third stage requires deeper and more complex thought processes, and is probably what most people think constitutes genuine empathy. Here, the observer places themselves into the mind of the subject and attempts to feel what they are going through, seeing the world from their perspective. Then, at stage four, the observer tries to react appropriately based on what they have seen and experienced.

Stage three is the only one that is unique to someone feeling genuine empathy for another human. Psychopaths are generally characterised by a lack of empathy, but tend to be highly capable of all the other stages, although at stage 4 they will often only react if it benefits them to do so. Stage three is also by far the hardest component of empathy to define and measure, being completely internal and private.

How do people who are racist, misogynist or trans/homophobic fit into this process? Clearly they're not all psychopaths but do they turn off their empathy in order to 'Other' people and discriminate against them? Prejudice is partly a learnt behaviour so are they learning to block/turn off empathy? Could this mean that people who struggle to display it can learn to?

As someone who has to do a bit of this, I find camouflaging interesting. I do know the appropriate way to respond, I just have to remind myself to do it very often. It feels like there's a bit in my brain that's not connected automatically and has to be manually turned on (as it were). I'm not on the spectrum, just not quite like other people in some regards. Or possibly a psychopath.

To get by in such a surface obsessed world, the only sensible strategy is to try and fake it. Pretend to react as people expect, spending years training your body and face to contort in ways that are completely unnatural. This is an astonishingly difficult thing to do, making the majority of social interactions terrifying and exhausting. Yet this camouflaging is something that seventy percent of autistic adults report doing most of the time, often resulting in huge damage to their physical and mental health

Posted: **Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:07 pm**

Tessa K wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:59 am How do people who are racist, misogynist or trans/homophobic fit into this process?

In the case of very very racist people (KKK, Combat 18, etc), I think they find ways to not see the target of their hatred as actually human. But I think that the more you go back on the hatred scale, the more it becomes dislike of what the group represents, rather than of any particular individuals who make it up. Even some of the more swivel-eyed Daily Mail readers might have a soft spot for Malala or their local newsagent.

I've seen a few stories of people who had a moment of realisation when they spent time with an individual from the group that they previously (thought that they) actively detested; for example, one guy on Twitter who used to be all "p.kis go home" until an immigrant doctor saved his Dad's life. To his credit, this guy went past the "Oh, well, some of them are all right" to the realisation that we are all a lot more than our salient group memberships.

Tessa K wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:59 am As someone who has to do a bit of this, I find camouflaging interesting. I do know the appropriate way to respond, I just have to remind myself to do it very often. It feels like there's a bit in my brain that's not connected automatically and has to be manually turned on (as it were). I'm not on the spectrum, just not quite like other people in some regards. Or possibly a psychopath.

Thanks for writing this. In my case it's an inability to produce what seems to be the right amount of overt reaction when something bad happens. I'll hear something like "Did you know, Bill got mugged last week", and my first (internal) reaction will quite often be "Yep, people get mugged from time to time, glad it wasn't me", when in fact what is expected is a variety of comments involving words like "scum". But I score very low on ASD self-tests, e.g., 18 out of 88 on this one. (Possibly slightly recursive question, given the subject matter: How do they get "out of 88" on a scale with 17 questions?)

Posted: **Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:22 pm**

sTeamTraen wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:07 pm But I score very low on ASD self-tests, e.g., 18 out of 88 on this one. (Possibly slightly recursive question, given the subject matter: How do they get "out of 88" on a scale with 17 questions?)

Maybe not all responses are weighted equally.

Posted: **Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:37 pm**

Isn't it just a case of regarding the other as a threat, rather than an inability to empathise?

I mean you might be able to empathise with a hungry lion but you wouldn't feel driven to give him a chance to catch you. And you wouldn't help a human enemy either. We're not (as I remember from Guns, Germs and Steel) so many generations away from a world in which every time you met a stranger you had to size up whether you needed to kill him before he killed you. So there can be more urgent calls on your behaviour than whether you can understand and sympathise with their emotional state (although even there that matters as it'll help you predict what they're likely to do).

If a black person advances then a racist loses part of their privilege. People don't like to give away privilege. You might be entirely able to empathise with a person whose entire race you're prejudiced against, but it's not the main thing driving how you treat them. And you probably don't dwell on (or actively avoid considering) how the world looks from their perspective, which probably makes your instinctive empathy duller.

Posted: **Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:39 pm**

I score extremely high on ASD tests, even when I'm trying really, really hard not to.

I'll speak on behalf of a small subset of people who may or may not be a spectrum which is poorly defined and doesn't have symptoms that fit across sexes anyway... Every person with Autism is different. Autism is a broad category so I really can't speak for much more than n=1 + some books I've read and people I've spoken to.

However, the step with empathy that I struggle with is step 2.

" The second stage requires the observer to correctly interpret that reaction, translating the words, facial expressions, body language and vocalisations they are seeing into a defined emotional state."

My brain doesn't do that with the ease that everyone else can, apparently. I can see your facial expressions and your body language and I can hear your words, but for you focussing and interpreting is automatic, I had to learn how to do it manually, if you see what I mean. That means it takes up more cognitive space for me, and too much data coming in = absolute gibberish coming out.

Once I've worked out in long form what your face, gestures, tone and words all add up to, I am easily able to do steps 3 and 4.

As I said, n = 1 and all that...

Posted: **Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:41 pm**

There was a very interesting interview on Radio 4 a while back with a boy of about 11 who was both autistic and very intelligent. He described how he had learned to used cognitive effort in situations where other people "just did things automatically". So he might be in a step 2 situation and he would treat it like a maths puzzle to work out what was going on. He was sort of meta-aware as well --- the interviewer said something like "Well, I can't tell that you're autistic" and the boy said "Well, that's because I spend a lot of time practicing".

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:21 am**

sTeamTraen wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:41 pm There was a very interesting interview on Radio 4 a while back with a boy of about 11 who was both autistic and very intelligent. He described how he had learned to used cognitive effort in situations where other people "just did things automatically". So he might be in a step 2 situation and he would treat it like a maths puzzle to work out what was going on. He was sort of meta-aware as well --- the interviewer said something like "Well, I can't tell that you're autistic" and the boy said "Well, that's because I spend a lot of time practicing".

When people say things like "Well, I can't tell that you're autistic", they mean it as a compliment, which shows what people not on the spectrum think of people who are.

One thing that frustrates me is when I'm talking about a problem I have involving someone else and the person I'm talking to either tries to explain it away or defends the other person - even if they don't know them. I know that they're trying to rationalise the situation because they don't get the emotional cue but making excuses for a stranger when I'm right in front of you needing support can be hard.

It can also be hard when someone goes straight into problem-solving mode when you just want sympathy and support*. I've explained this to quite a few people and they learnt to just make sympathy noises or, if they're not sure, to ask me how I feel; saying it in words is easier for some people to absorb than reading faces or body language.

And btw you can easily tell when I'm upset or angry because the swearing quotient goes up.

So I can sort of experience this from both sides. I see when I don't get the sympathy/empathy I need but also I have to remind myself to do the appropriate response to other people. I find it especially hard in work situations where you have to be part of the team and make people like you to make your life easier but actually don't give a stuff about their bl..dy dog/kids/latest fad diet/reality TV show/relationship drama. Some people are able to do this naturally, to be sociable with anyone and care about their lives. I am not nice.

*I've noticed a lot of men do this even if they're not on the spectrum.

Posted: **Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:23 am**

Tessa K wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:21 am

When people say things like "Well, I can't tell that you're autistic", they mean it as a compliment, which shows what people not on the spectrum think of people who are.

Sadly, most people are only really aware of the truly disabled autists, who, don't get me wrong, are still perfectly capable of many, many things, often have special talents and have a valid and valuable lived experience of the world... but most people see the disability bit and think "oh, what a pity..." etc. It's patronizing and sh.t, but it is what it is, and until we have a revolution in the way we see "dis"ability then it probably won't change. I don't think melding Aspergers into Autism has actually helped much. High-Functioning Autism is such a massive misnomer! Autistic person A is unbelievably good a maths and can mask his autism for 8+ hours a day, but as soon as he gets home he's so tired from the forced interaction he has to go back to bed for a couple of hours, and misses out on working on his special skill. Autistic Person A is "high-functioning" in public, but when you look behind the mask, he's a shell of a person and permanently on the edge of burnout.

Tessa K wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:21 am One thing that frustrates me is when I'm talking about a problem I have involving someone else and the person I'm talking to either tries to explain it away or defends the other person - even if they don't know them. I know that they're trying to rationalise the situation because they don't get the emotional cue but making excuses for a stranger when I'm right in front of you needing support can be hard.

Not sure if this is an autism thing or a total lack of emotional intelligence thing. I'd probably attribute that to individual differences rather than any particular condition. Autism does mean that the emotional cue is not obvious to us, but most of us will have studied the human race in detail throughout our lives and, although, it'll be a logical deduction based on what your face and voice are like, what you're actually saying and what my previous experience dictates the right response to be, I for one will usually arrive at the roughly correct conclusion and offer supportive vocalisations. I'd say that depends on how much your autistic person even cares about validating others in general, you in particular and whether they've studied human interaction enough to know what the "correct" response is. In my case, a polite correction is sufficient - "Nezumi, sweetie, you don't know this person, please just assume they're a total dick for the purposes of this conversation".

Tessa K wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:21 am It can also be hard when someone goes straight into problem-solving mode when you just want sympathy and support*. I've explained this to quite a few people and they learnt to just make sympathy noises or, if they're not sure, to ask me how I feel; saying it in words is easier for some people to absorb than reading faces or body language. *I've noticed a lot of men do this even if they're not on the spectrum.

I'm glad you're giving kind corrections, if a person really does struggle with human relations then all the things you're doing are perfectly appropriate and to be commended, I wish more people thought like you - my life would have been so much easier up to now! I think you're probably right though, it's a man thing

Tessa K wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:21 am And btw you can easily tell when I'm upset or angry because the swearing quotient goes up.

My extensive studies of humans find that this is consistent across the majority of people and can be used as a rule of thumb.

Tessa K wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:21 am So I can sort of experience this from both sides. I see when I don't get the sympathy/empathy I need but also I have to remind myself to do the appropriate response to other people. I find it especially hard in work situations where you have to be part of the team and make people like you to make your life easier but actually don't give a stuff about their bl..dy dog/kids/latest fad diet/reality TV show/relationship drama. Some people are able to do this naturally, to be sociable with anyone and care about their lives. I am not nice.

I just avoid the conversations that involve stuff like diets and TV and relationships, which means I tend not to have too many conversations. I don't understand why people prattle on about things like that either. For me, appropriate responses to a lot of things are basically automatic now, but otherwise I just keep myself out of it which does, admittedly make me look a bit odd in the workplace, but that's a small price to pay to be able to function even a little bit by the time I get home.

And I do think you are nice Tessa, but just not neurotypical nice, which in my experience is daggers hidden in velvet anyway. I'm certain a conversation with you would be quite a lot more interesting than reality telly and relationships.

Sorry for loser length post lol

Posted: **Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:49 am**

Tessa K wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:21 am
One thing that frustrates me is when I'm talking about a problem I have involving someone else and the person I'm talking to either tries to explain it away or defends the other person - even if they don't know them. I know that they're trying to rationalise the situation because they don't get the emotional cue but making excuses for a stranger when I'm right in front of you needing support can be hard.

It can also be hard when someone goes straight into problem-solving mode when you just want sympathy and support*. I've explained this to quite a few people and they learnt to just make sympathy noises...

*I've noticed a lot of men do this even if they're not on the spectrum.

I have a strong urge to do both of these and it helps to have it pointed out sometimes. I suspect it distresses me overmuch when people fall out and I want to find a way back; maybe it's a misunderstanding, maybe they don't really have it in for you, that sort of thing. Sorry. An occasional "stop trying to fix it" helps.

Posted: **Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:09 pm**

nezumi wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:23 am
Tessa K wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:21 am

When people say things like "Well, I can't tell that you're autistic", they mean it as a compliment, which shows what people not on the spectrum think of people who are.

Sadly, most people are only really aware of the truly disabled autists, who, don't get me wrong, are still perfectly capable of many, many things, often have special talents and have a valid and valuable lived experience of the world... but most people see the disability bit and think "oh, what a pity..." etc. It's patronizing and sh.t, but it is what it is, and until we have a revolution in the way we see "dis"ability then it probably won't change. I don't think melding Aspergers into Autism has actually helped much. High-Functioning Autism is such a massive misnomer! Autistic person A is unbelievably good a maths and can mask his autism for 8+ hours a day, but as soon as he gets home he's so tired from the forced interaction he has to go back to bed for a couple of hours, and misses out on working on his special skill. Autistic Person A is "high-functioning" in public, but when you look behind the mask, he's a shell of a person and permanently on the edge of burnout.

Tessa K wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:21 am One thing that frustrates me is when I'm talking about a problem I have involving someone else and the person I'm talking to either tries to explain it away or defends the other person - even if they don't know them. I know that they're trying to rationalise the situation because they don't get the emotional cue but making excuses for a stranger when I'm right in front of you needing support can be hard.
Not sure if this is an autism thing or a total lack of emotional intelligence thing. I'd probably attribute that to individual differences rather than any particular condition. Autism does mean that the emotional cue is not obvious to us, but most of us will have studied the human race in detail throughout our lives and, although, it'll be a logical deduction based on what your face and voice are like, what you're actually saying and what my previous experience dictates the right response to be, I for one will usually arrive at the roughly correct conclusion and offer supportive vocalisations. I'd say that depends on how much your autistic person even cares about validating others in general, you in particular and whether they've studied human interaction enough to know what the "correct" response is. In my case, a polite correction is sufficient - "Nezumi, sweetie, you don't know this person, please just assume they're a total dick for the purposes of this conversation".

Tessa K wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:21 am It can also be hard when someone goes straight into problem-solving mode when you just want sympathy and support*. I've explained this to quite a few people and they learnt to just make sympathy noises or, if they're not sure, to ask me how I feel; saying it in words is easier for some people to absorb than reading faces or body language. *I've noticed a lot of men do this even if they're not on the spectrum.
I'm glad you're giving kind corrections, if a person really does struggle with human relations then all the things you're doing are perfectly appropriate and to be commended, I wish more people thought like you - my life would have been so much easier up to now! I think you're probably right though, it's a man thing

Tessa K wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:21 am And btw you can easily tell when I'm upset or angry because the swearing quotient goes up.
My extensive studies of humans find that this is consistent across the majority of people and can be used as a rule of thumb.

Tessa K wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:21 am So I can sort of experience this from both sides. I see when I don't get the sympathy/empathy I need but also I have to remind myself to do the appropriate response to other people. I find it especially hard in work situations where you have to be part of the team and make people like you to make your life easier but actually don't give a stuff about their bl..dy dog/kids/latest fad diet/reality TV show/relationship drama. Some people are able to do this naturally, to be sociable with anyone and care about their lives. I am not nice.

I just avoid the conversations that involve stuff like diets and TV and relationships, which means I tend not to have too many conversations. I don't understand why people prattle on about things like that either. For me, appropriate responses to a lot of things are basically automatic now, but otherwise I just keep myself out of it which does, admittedly make me look a bit odd in the workplace, but that's a small price to pay to be able to function even a little bit by the time I get home.

And I do think you are nice Tessa, but just not neurotypical nice, which in my experience is daggers hidden in velvet anyway. I'm certain a conversation with you would be quite a lot more interesting than reality telly and relationships.

Sorry for loser length post lol

I am happy to talk about relationships and shoes and kittens but only with people I really like as part of an ongoing conversation over time that covers many other more serious and weighty matters as well.

One thing that's expected of me as a woman is to be enthusiastic about looking at photos of other people's kids and holding them. I really don't care if your baby is the cutest thing ever, unless it's capable of having a conversation about whether Henry Cavill is good casting as the Witcher I'm not interested. And no, I do not want to smell your baby's head. It doesn't smell lovely, it smells like milky puke. And its fingers look like evil spiders. Why am I not allowed to say this with my outside voice?

Posted: **Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:08 pm**

Tessa K wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:09 pm

I am happy to talk about relationships and shoes and kittens but only with people I really like as part of an ongoing conversation over time that covers many other more serious and weighty matters as well.

One thing that's expected of me as a woman is to be enthusiastic about looking at photos of other people's kids and holding them. I really don't care if your baby is the cutest thing ever, unless it's capable of having a conversation about whether Henry Cavill is good casting as the Witcher I'm not interested. And no, I do not want to smell your baby's head. It doesn't smell lovely, it smells like milky puke. And its fingers look like evil spiders. Why am I not allowed to say this with my outside voice?

Kittens absolutely! Shoes? Nope.

Babies? Also nope. All babies are is a precursor to noise.

Posted: **Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:31 pm**

Tessa K wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:59 amAs someone who has to do a bit of this, I find camouflaging interesting. I do know the appropriate way to respond, I just have to remind myself to do it very often. It feels like there's a bit in my brain that's not connected automatically and has to be manually turned on (as it were). I'm not on the spectrum, just not quite like other people in some regards. Or possibly a psychopath.

To get by in such a surface obsessed world, the only sensible strategy is to try and fake it. Pretend to react as people expect, spending years training your body and face to contort in ways that are completely unnatural. This is an astonishingly difficult thing to do, making the majority of social interactions terrifying and exhausting. Yet this camouflaging is something that seventy percent of autistic adults report doing most of the time, often resulting in huge damage to their physical and mental health

I know this Hyperbole and a Half page is about depression, but I had a real moment of recognition at the "How do you make the face for "yay"? Am I doing it?" cartoon. When I'm embarrassed or uncomfortable, my face tends to make a smile, which is frequently inappropriate, as was brought home to me once while getting a bollocking from my boss. So yeah, nice to know it's not just me.

Tessa K wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:21 am It can also be hard when someone goes straight into problem-solving mode when you just want sympathy and support*. I've explained this to quite a few people and they learnt to just make sympathy noises or, if they're not sure, to ask me how I feel; saying it in words is easier for some people to absorb than reading faces or body language.

What you should do in this situation is take a large haddo --- er, I mean, that sounds ghastly, poor you.

Tessa K wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:21 am So I can sort of experience this from both sides. I see when I don't get the sympathy/empathy I need but also I have to remind myself to do the appropriate response to other people. I find it especially hard in work situations where you have to be part of the team and make people like you to make your life easier but actually don't give a stuff about their bl..dy dog/kids/latest fad diet/reality TV show/relationship drama. Some people are able to do this naturally, to be sociable with anyone and care about their lives. I am not nice.

I skimmed through How To Make Friends And Influence People in a bookshop once (god knows I need the help) and my impression was that it was repulsively cynical -- it seemed to be about how you should take notes about people's children's names and birthdays and personal stuff like that, and swot it up before you meet them, and put reminders in your diary a few days before their birthday, and trot out the required formulas to give the impression that you are interested in them, even though it is completely false. I thought this was, as I say, dishonest and obnoxious. Some people are naturally interested in other people and good at making this sort of small talk, and these people are genuinely nice as long as they realise that not everyone is like them and some people don't want to talk about this stuff at work. I guess I should adapt my opinion to be that it's OK when people need to do it to make work life tolerable, rather than as a cynical technique to climb the greasy pole to "success". Obviously I've never bothered with it myself, which explains a few things about my career progression.

Posted: **Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:47 am**

Sciolus wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:31 pm
Tessa K wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:59 amAs someone who has to do a bit of this, I find camouflaging interesting. I do know the appropriate way to respond, I just have to remind myself to do it very often. It feels like there's a bit in my brain that's not connected automatically and has to be manually turned on (as it were). I'm not on the spectrum, just not quite like other people in some regards. Or possibly a psychopath.

To get by in such a surface obsessed world, the only sensible strategy is to try and fake it. Pretend to react as people expect, spending years training your body and face to contort in ways that are completely unnatural. This is an astonishingly difficult thing to do, making the majority of social interactions terrifying and exhausting. Yet this camouflaging is something that seventy percent of autistic adults report doing most of the time, often resulting in huge damage to their physical and mental health

I know this Hyperbole and a Half page is about depression, but I had a real moment of recognition at the "How do you make the face for "yay"? Am I doing it?" cartoon. When I'm embarrassed or uncomfortable, my face tends to make a smile, which is frequently inappropriate, as was brought home to me once while getting a bollocking from my boss. So yeah, nice to know it's not just me.

Tessa K wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:21 am It can also be hard when someone goes straight into problem-solving mode when you just want sympathy and support*. I've explained this to quite a few people and they learnt to just make sympathy noises or, if they're not sure, to ask me how I feel; saying it in words is easier for some people to absorb than reading faces or body language.
What you should do in this situation is take a large haddo --- er, I mean, that sounds ghastly, poor you.

Tessa K wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:21 am So I can sort of experience this from both sides. I see when I don't get the sympathy/empathy I need but also I have to remind myself to do the appropriate response to other people. I find it especially hard in work situations where you have to be part of the team and make people like you to make your life easier but actually don't give a stuff about their bl..dy dog/kids/latest fad diet/reality TV show/relationship drama. Some people are able to do this naturally, to be sociable with anyone and care about their lives. I am not nice.
I skimmed through How To Make Friends And Influence People in a bookshop once (god knows I need the help) and my impression was that it was repulsively cynical -- it seemed to be about how you should take notes about people's children's names and birthdays and personal stuff like that, and swot it up before you meet them, and put reminders in your diary a few days before their birthday, and trot out the required formulas to give the impression that you are interested in them, even though it is completely false. I thought this was, as I say, dishonest and obnoxious. Some people are naturally interested in other people and good at making this sort of small talk, and these people are genuinely nice as long as they realise that not everyone is like them and some people don't want to talk about this stuff at work. I guess I should adapt my opinion to be that it's OK when people need to do it to make work life tolerable, rather than as a cynical technique to climb the greasy pole to "success". Obviously I've never bothered with it myself, which explains a few things about my career progression.

For some people chatting about 'trivial' stuff is how they make a dull job bearable. It's a form of social grooming, too. Like picking fleas off each other...

I've never been a fan of after-work drinks and events. If I've just spent 8+ hours with people, why would I want to spend my free time with them as well? If any colleagues do become friends we'll make our own social arrangements.

Posted: **Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:08 pm**

Tessa K wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:47 am I've never been a fan of after-work drinks and events. If I've just spent 8+ hours with people, why would I want to spend my free time with them as well? If any colleagues do become friends we'll make our own social arrangements.

This^^^^^^

In the international organisation where I worked, a woman who had been in the same department of 10-12 people for 3 or 4 years told me that it was like a soap opera. Basically every coupling-up that was possible given everyone's sexual proclivities had occurred among all but two of the department, several of whom were married. She and one male colleague were the only ones who just went home to their respective spouses at the end of each day, but everyone else lived in each other's pockets (...). The resulting tensions after the inevitable break-ups made the atmosphere poisonous, but because of the way our tenured posts worked, it was quite hard for anyone to transfer out.

Posted: **Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:09 am**

sTeamTraen wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:08 pm
Tessa K wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:47 am I've never been a fan of after-work drinks and events. If I've just spent 8+ hours with people, why would I want to spend my free time with them as well? If any colleagues do become friends we'll make our own social arrangements.
This^^^^^^

In the international organisation where I worked, a woman who had been in the same department of 10-12 people for 3 or 4 years told me that it was like a soap opera. Basically every coupling-up that was possible given everyone's sexual proclivities had occurred among all but two of the department, several of whom were married. She and one male colleague were the only ones who just went home to their respective spouses at the end of each day, but everyone else lived in each other's pockets (...). The resulting tensions after the inevitable break-ups made the atmosphere poisonous, but because of the way our tenured posts worked, it was quite hard for anyone to transfer out.

Agreed!

I've pretty much worked in call-centres my entire career so far* and they are hot beds of "incest"**. Not a week goes by in normal times that you don't hear about someone sleeping with someone else, and many of the staff are often either family or in relationships with one another. Call-centres are a bit like a Victorian textile mill in that sense, they suck up all the available workers of a certain level of intelligence in an area so everyone is almost bound to know everyone else already. And just about everybody has slept with just about everybody else.

Even worse, it's not a large town so one friend, who I will not name, has to work in the same large room as the man who raped her*** when she was 15. She's not said anything to anyone at work but it does seem to distress her. She's another one that disappears sharpish at the end of the day.

Once I have finished my work day I am not hanging about for even 10 seconds, I want to go home. I might occasionally go for coffee with a female friend but otherwise I avoid work events like the actual plague.

* Yes I could do so much more, but I'm not really money motivated, I've tried to get out previously and been knocked back every time, call centre work is easy and you go home at the end of the day and don't have to think about it, and, at least in my tangentially sales-y job, the money is actually quite good. I live in a town with no jobs anyway. Quit judging me!

** In the call-centres I've worked at this is genuinely what work-based sexual relationships are called!

*** Not violent, he got her drunk at a party and wouldn't take no for an answer. She was in tears when she told me, so I believe every word, but it was so long ago and she didn't report it at the time, so she feels like she has no choice but to see him every day.

Posted: **Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:29 pm**

Tessa K wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:59 am Interesting piece by the Angry Chef on empathy and the autism spectrum.

https://angry-chef.com/blog/empathy

To get by in such a surface obsessed world, the only sensible strategy is to try and fake it. Pretend to react as people expect, spending years training your body and face to contort in ways that are completely unnatural. This is an astonishingly difficult thing to do, making the majority of social interactions terrifying and exhausting. Yet this camouflaging is something that seventy percent of autistic adults report doing most of the time, often resulting in huge damage to their physical and mental health

As someone recently diagnosed with autism in her 40's I can say that this camoflaging (I've more commonly heard it called "masking", but both work) is utterly draining. I have to actively analyse every interaction I have to see if there is another meaning behind what has been said, and for many years I thought this was how everyone did it and they were just quicker at it than me. I always end up dissecting and analysing every aspect of a conversation for hours or even days afterwards to find that hidden meaning.

Since getting diagnosed I've been very open about it, I don't see it as a disability just a difference, and I've now lost count of the number of times people have told me they never thought I might be autistic. My response these days is "yes, I'm great at pretending to be normal". The upside of being open about it is that I now feel I can say to people "you know what I can't handle this right now, I need some time to recharge" and it has really helped my mental health. I used to feel permanently exhausted, anxious, and was terrified of social situations but now I have a bit more confidence and feel able to take the timeout I need.

Scrutable

Autism and empathy

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