Scrutable

discovolante wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:03 pm I keep wondering...what if Al Gore had been elected eh.

Fishnut wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:51 pm

discovolante wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:03 pm I keep wondering...what if Al Gore had been elected eh.

Me too. It does seem to have been a major turning-point, not just in the way that it set the precedent of allowing the democratic process to be subverted to give Bush the victory, but in the way that Bush then handled 9/11. I've been listening to a couple of podcasts on the Iraq War - Blowback being a stand-out - and watched the incredible Once Upon In Iraq documentary (still available on iPlayer) and the impact of the war, not just on Iraq, but the whole world, is profound. I don't know if Gore would have prevented 9/11 from happening (though my understanding is that the evidence of an attack was there, just ignored) but I do think he wouldn't have reacted as catastrophically as Bush did. And that would have changed an awful lot. It's impossible to know for sure, obviously, but I do wonder if we would have seen the same push to the right if the aftermath of 9/11 had been handled differently.

discovolante wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:09 pm

Fishnut wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:51 pm

discovolante wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:03 pm I keep wondering...what if Al Gore had been elected eh.

Me too. It does seem to have been a major turning-point, not just in the way that it set the precedent of allowing the democratic process to be subverted to give Bush the victory, but in the way that Bush then handled 9/11. I've been listening to a couple of podcasts on the Iraq War - Blowback being a stand-out - and watched the incredible Once Upon In Iraq documentary (still available on iPlayer) and the impact of the war, not just on Iraq, but the whole world, is profound. I don't know if Gore would have prevented 9/11 from happening (though my understanding is that the evidence of an attack was there, just ignored) but I do think he wouldn't have reacted as catastrophically as Bush did. And that would have changed an awful lot. It's impossible to know for sure, obviously, but I do wonder if we would have seen the same push to the right if the aftermath of 9/11 had been handled differently.

Thanks for those links. I'm trying to spread my heavy reading/listening/watching out a bit (and am also trying to catch up on a lot of stuff) but I've subscribed to Blowback and downloaded the first episode as a reminder

discovolante wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:09 pm

Fishnut wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:51 pm

discovolante wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:03 pm I keep wondering...what if Al Gore had been elected eh.

Me too. It does seem to have been a major turning-point, not just in the way that it set the precedent of allowing the democratic process to be subverted to give Bush the victory, but in the way that Bush then handled 9/11. I've been listening to a couple of podcasts on the Iraq War - Blowback being a stand-out - and watched the incredible Once Upon In Iraq documentary (still available on iPlayer) and the impact of the war, not just on Iraq, but the whole world, is profound. I don't know if Gore would have prevented 9/11 from happening (though my understanding is that the evidence of an attack was there, just ignored) but I do think he wouldn't have reacted as catastrophically as Bush did. And that would have changed an awful lot. It's impossible to know for sure, obviously, but I do wonder if we would have seen the same push to the right if the aftermath of 9/11 had been handled differently.

Thanks for those links. I'm trying to spread my heavy reading/listening/watching out a bit (and am also trying to catch up on a lot of stuff) but I've subscribed to Blowback and downloaded the first episode as a reminder

Woodchopper wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:53 pm

discovolante wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:09 pm

Fishnut wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:51 pm

Me too. It does seem to have been a major turning-point, not just in the way that it set the precedent of allowing the democratic process to be subverted to give Bush the victory, but in the way that Bush then handled 9/11. I've been listening to a couple of podcasts on the Iraq War - Blowback being a stand-out - and watched the incredible Once Upon In Iraq documentary (still available on iPlayer) and the impact of the war, not just on Iraq, but the whole world, is profound. I don't know if Gore would have prevented 9/11 from happening (though my understanding is that the evidence of an attack was there, just ignored) but I do think he wouldn't have reacted as catastrophically as Bush did. And that would have changed an awful lot. It's impossible to know for sure, obviously, but I do wonder if we would have seen the same push to the right if the aftermath of 9/11 had been handled differently.

Thanks for those links. I'm trying to spread my heavy reading/listening/watching out a bit (and am also trying to catch up on a lot of stuff) but I've subscribed to Blowback and downloaded the first episode as a reminder

For an exhaustive examination of the invasion and its aftermath see the Chilcott Inquiry: https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov ... ry.org.uk/

The criticism is also damming, in its own way.

discovolante wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:56 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:53 pm

discovolante wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:09 pm

Thanks for those links. I'm trying to spread my heavy reading/listening/watching out a bit (and am also trying to catch up on a lot of stuff) but I've subscribed to Blowback and downloaded the first episode as a reminder

For an exhaustive examination of the invasion and its aftermath see the Chilcott Inquiry: https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov ... ry.org.uk/

The criticism is also damming, in its own way.

Oh the Chilcott Inquiry, I hadn't heard of that

Thanks for the reminder though. Nothing better to get stuck into after a hard day at the office in my kitchen.

Woodchopper wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:18 pm

discovolante wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:56 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:53 pm

For an exhaustive examination of the invasion and its aftermath see the Chilcott Inquiry: https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov ... ry.org.uk/

The criticism is also damming, in its own way.

Oh the Chilcott Inquiry, I hadn't heard of that

Thanks for the reminder though. Nothing better to get stuck into after a hard day at the office in my kitchen.

Well it does have an executive summery. You don't have to read all 12 volumes.

Woodchopper wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:18 pm

discovolante wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:56 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:53 pm

For an exhaustive examination of the invasion and its aftermath see the Chilcott Inquiry: https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov ... ry.org.uk/

The criticism is also damming, in its own way.

Oh the Chilcott Inquiry, I hadn't heard of that

Thanks for the reminder though. Nothing better to get stuck into after a hard day at the office in my kitchen.

Well it does have an executive summery. You don't have to read all 12 volumes.

Woodchopper wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:18 pm

discovolante wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:56 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:53 pm

For an exhaustive examination of the invasion and its aftermath see the Chilcott Inquiry: https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov ... ry.org.uk/

The criticism is also damming, in its own way.

Oh the Chilcott Inquiry, I hadn't heard of that

Thanks for the reminder though. Nothing better to get stuck into after a hard day at the office in my kitchen.

Well it does have an executive summery. You don't have to read all 12 volumes.

Fishnut wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:35 pm

discovolante wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:09 pm

Fishnut wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:51 pm

Me too. It does seem to have been a major turning-point, not just in the way that it set the precedent of allowing the democratic process to be subverted to give Bush the victory, but in the way that Bush then handled 9/11. I've been listening to a couple of podcasts on the Iraq War - Blowback being a stand-out - and watched the incredible Once Upon In Iraq documentary (still available on iPlayer) and the impact of the war, not just on Iraq, but the whole world, is profound. I don't know if Gore would have prevented 9/11 from happening (though my understanding is that the evidence of an attack was there, just ignored) but I do think he wouldn't have reacted as catastrophically as Bush did. And that would have changed an awful lot. It's impossible to know for sure, obviously, but I do wonder if we would have seen the same push to the right if the aftermath of 9/11 had been handled differently.

Thanks for those links. I'm trying to spread my heavy reading/listening/watching out a bit (and am also trying to catch up on a lot of stuff) but I've subscribed to Blowback and downloaded the first episode as a reminder

Blowback is excellent and incredibly well-researched but it's worth noting that not trying to be unbiased. It's made by people who hate what Bush and Co did, and aren't afraid to be explicit, either in their language or their condemnation. But I honestly think it's better for it. I've listened to a couple of episodes of The Fault Line by David Dimbleby and while it's got interviews with all sorts of people, including Blair and other key players, plus archive interviews with Rumsfeld etc, it feels very "both sides" in comparison. It seems to be trying to make the case that while, no, there weren't WMDs, and yes, we completely destabilised Iraq, maybe we still did right by going to war there. I may be being too harsh on it, and I've not finished listening yet but it feels much more like an "official" podcast, authorised by those in charge at the time and therefore less willing to say it was a complete f.cking mess that was totally unnecessary.

discovolante wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:42 am Nothing is unbiased.

I know it sounds daft to put any weight on this but to my knowledge there hasn't really been a 'popular' representation of what happened

Little waster wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:51 am

discovolante wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:42 am Nothing is unbiased.

I know it sounds daft to put any weight on this but to my knowledge there hasn't really been a 'popular' representation of what happened

As an aside one of the Youtube channels I watch is "The Armchair Historian", I don't think he is a professional historian and I imagine he was about 3 when the Iraq War happened.



Nevertheless his videos on WW2 or the Korean War fill an idle 10 minutes without setting off any alarm bells. Then he did the "Build-Up to the Iraq War"*.

Straight up Republican propaganda which I thought had been debunked since the invasion itself. Saddam tricked us into thinking he had WMDs, Saddam was probably behind 911, there definitely was a chemical weapons factory in a water-treatment plant but the RAF accidentally blewed it up destroying ALL evidence of it**, Mobile WMD labs are definitely a thing, the post-war anarchy could not have been anticipated, the UN and the international community were fully behind the war, Abu Ghraib was closed down, "Our SOB" death-squads were all brave patriotic civilians spontaneously rising up to fight "Their SOB" death-squads who were all murderous jihadi terrorists and so on.

No dodgy dossier, no 45 mins, no Downing Street Memo, no UN veto, no Niger yellow-cake, no Rumsfeld being matey with Saddam, no Cheney's novel theories about military occupations, no post-invasion carve up of Iraq's wealth.

A Gish gallop of PRATTs, delivered straight from a supposedly disinterested historian, too young to actually remember it, who could only have even heard of these things by doing his own research and choosing particularly biased sources. Yet for a chunk of the Youtube audience this video may be their only information about the build-up to the war.



*TBF his "Aftermath of the Iraq War" was a bit more balanced although IIRC it was still very much of the "well-meaning Americans, masochistic Ah-rabs, meddling kids Iranians" narrative.

**As a fr'instance, this was a new one on me, so I looked it up and the only reference I could find was an anecdote from an anonymous "SAS source" to the Daily Mail which nobody else ever picked up on.

discovolante wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:42 am

Fishnut wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:35 pm

discovolante wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:09 pm

Thanks for those links. I'm trying to spread my heavy reading/listening/watching out a bit (and am also trying to catch up on a lot of stuff) but I've subscribed to Blowback and downloaded the first episode as a reminder

Blowback is excellent and incredibly well-researched but it's worth noting that not trying to be unbiased. It's made by people who hate what Bush and Co did, and aren't afraid to be explicit, either in their language or their condemnation. But I honestly think it's better for it. I've listened to a couple of episodes of The Fault Line by David Dimbleby and while it's got interviews with all sorts of people, including Blair and other key players, plus archive interviews with Rumsfeld etc, it feels very "both sides" in comparison. It seems to be trying to make the case that while, no, there weren't WMDs, and yes, we completely destabilised Iraq, maybe we still did right by going to war there. I may be being too harsh on it, and I've not finished listening yet but it feels much more like an "official" podcast, authorised by those in charge at the time and therefore less willing to say it was a complete f.cking mess that was totally unnecessary.

Nothing is unbiased

I meant to say, I recently listened to this podcast ep: https://www.vox.com/2020/9/2/21417224/w ... nistration an interview with Robert Draper, mainly about his new book 'To Start a War: How the Bush Administration Took America into Iraq'. He interviewed 300 people about the decisions leading up to the invasion. I doubt the podcast episode goes into anywhere near as much detail as an entire series or a full documentary, mind. He was almost kind to Bush, depicting him as an unimaginative 'true believer' led along by Dick Cheney the out-and-out liar, Paul Wolfowitz and his other yes-men, with people like Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice and so on totally failing to take any opportunities presented to them to try and steer Bush in another direction. But yeah Sciolus's joke about waiting for the Chilcott Inquiry report to be made into a film made me laugh because it seemed to sort of echo Robert Draper's comment that there has never been a full 'reckoning' regarding the war - US and UK foreign policy might have been influenced by it but even though it's been discussed endlessly it maybe hasn't been tackled properly head on in public by people who should tackle it head on. Of course he was talking about the US and I suppose you could say the Chilcott Inquiry is something along those lines but from what I can remember it felt like the mere fact of the publication of the report was almost bigger news than its content by the time it was finally released, at least in the general public sphere. I know it sounds daft to put any weight on this but to my knowledge there hasn't really been a 'popular' representation of what happened (I'm not sure The Hurt Locker counts) - although I don't tend to watch military themed films so maybe I've missed something - and I'm not sure that it would unless it was acknowledged publicly in that way? Obviously I'm not saying that a box office smash about it would seriously solve all the 'unfinished business' problems that rattle around in politics, I'm just trying to make a lot out of an offhand comment really

Fishnut wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:42 pm I can't think of any films about the second Iraq War (oh, just thought of one, Green Zone), and the only one that comes to mind about the first is Three Kings. I do think the lack of representation in film is noteworthy. I wonder if the lack of an obvious 'good' guy makes things harder.

Fishnut wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:42 pm I had a brief look at the Chilcott Inquiry and f.ck, it's long. I'd somehow forgotten it only came out in 2016. I think you're right that press focused on the making of the sausage rather than the contents of the sausage. Which seems to be their way unfortunately.

monkey wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:33 pm

Fishnut wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:42 pm I can't think of any films about the second Iraq War (oh, just thought of one, Green Zone), and the only one that comes to mind about the first is Three Kings. I do think the lack of representation in film is noteworthy. I wonder if the lack of an obvious 'good' guy makes things harder.

The biggie from the 2nd Iraq war was The Hurt Locker, which won a bunch of oscars, including the first best director being awarded to a woman. There was also American Sniper, which I remember there being a bit of controversy about, but not exactly sure what that was, and I have never seen it. Think it may have glorified things too much.

Jarheads is the only one I remember about the 1st war.

I don't think it's the lack of a good guy that is the problem. There's several memorable Vietnam war films, and no one comes across as the good guy in those (apart from maybe Forrest Gump, edit: and Robin Williams, just remembered about Good Morning Vietnam).

Woodchopper wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:41 pm

Fishnut wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:42 pm I had a brief look at the Chilcott Inquiry and f.ck, it's long. I'd somehow forgotten it only came out in 2016. I think you're right that press focused on the making of the sausage rather than the contents of the sausage. Which seems to be their way unfortunately.

Just stick to the executive summary. I keep mentioning it because a lot of the subjects people debate have actually been answered, or if they haven't then they probably can't be.

Fishnut wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:42 pm I can't think of any films about the second Iraq War (oh, just thought of one, Green Zone), and the only one that comes to mind about the first is Three Kings. I do think the lack of representation in film is noteworthy. I wonder if the lack of an obvious 'good' guy makes things harder.