Scrutable

Why is it that water cannon are still legal in NI when they're not in the rest of the UK because they can cause serious harm?

It's obviously a more complex situation than just Brexit as some of the media are reporting but no one group has said they're behind the violence and I'm not sure where to look for unbiased reporting. Is anyone here based in NI?

I thought this was an excellent piece on the background to the riots.

No matter what noises he made about cherishing the union, his ambition was to be the Prime Minister that took the UK out of the EU and if betraying Unionists was the price of doing so, it was one Johnson was happy to pay...

Loyalists are angry, yes, we get that. They have been betrayed, there is no other term for it, but betrayed by the UK government through an act of parliament their own political representatives supported. Northern Ireland is now in economic terms, semi-detached from the UK. It is the political equivalent of Johnson serving divorce papers or ghosting Unionism. He’s just not that into you and in truth neither is most of Great Britain...

Brexit is driven primarily by English nationalism which cares nothing for Northern Ireland or even Scotland.

Fishnut wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:28 am I thought this was an excellent piece on the background to the riots.

No matter what noises he made about cherishing the union, his ambition was to be the Prime Minister that took the UK out of the EU and if betraying Unionists was the price of doing so, it was one Johnson was happy to pay...

Loyalists are angry, yes, we get that. They have been betrayed, there is no other term for it, but betrayed by the UK government through an act of parliament their own political representatives supported. Northern Ireland is now in economic terms, semi-detached from the UK. It is the political equivalent of Johnson serving divorce papers or ghosting Unionism. He’s just not that into you and in truth neither is most of Great Britain...

Brexit is driven primarily by English nationalism which cares nothing for Northern Ireland or even Scotland.

Yes, you beat me to it.

Already with the right wing commentators trying to frame it as Remainers fault.

Vertigowooyay wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:10 pm Already with the right wing commentators trying to frame it as Remainers fault.

In much the same way it's Isaac Newton's fault I can't majestically fly when I hurl myself off a cliff-edge screaming "Will of the People!" at any unpatriotic gravity-supporters.

DAG on twitter has been pointing out Remainers couldn't even win the Brexit vote or delay the withdrawal agreement so how on earth have they suddenly become powerful enough to cause the riots.

Not getting behind Brexit and thus encouraging the dastardly EU to punish Britain with consequences we see today.

Simples

Betrayal? You betray a friend or an ally, not an annoyance.

noggins wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:34 pm Betrayal? You betray a friend or an ally, not an annoyance.

Yeah, for enemies it's "cunningly outwit".

Does this advance or regress Irish unification?

Herainestold wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:11 pm Does this advance or regress Irish unification?

There's an interesting take on it here (by an actual Irish person)

https://twitter.com/PatricKielty/status ... 1816708096

Tessa K wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:24 pm

Herainestold wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:11 pm Does this advance or regress Irish unification?

There's an interesting take on it here (by an actual Irish person)

https://twitter.com/PatricKielty/status ... 1816708096

I was on about the 10th tweet before I clocked the date they were posted, Sept 2018.

Hey but who could possibly have predicted this turn of events in 2021?

So...Irish unification is actually closer because of Brexit.. therefore Brexit is a good thing.

Herainestold wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:08 pm So...Irish unification is actually closer because of Brexit.. therefore Brexit is a good thing.

The Luftwaffe demolished the shed my grandad had been meaning to knock down, therefore the Luftwaffe are a good thing.

https://www.tommckendrick.com/code/casualties1.html

There are two accents of the English language I cannot abide: One is Afrikaans and the other is Ulster protestant. I dislike them not only because they sound ugly but because they have, in my mind, a life long association with angry rhetoric and the subjugation of others.

So as far as I am concerned the Orange order can take their pathetic marching bands, their pipes and whistles and their stupid pseudo masonic regalia and they can f.cking march off of into the Atlantic for all I care.

I am also sick to death of Northern Irish protestant political interests holding the conservatives to ransom with their minority vote in the house of commons. "Loyalist" they're not f.cking loyal to anything I hold dear.

United Ireland? Yes please, have the North with my blessing, sorry about the proddies.

...and serve that up with a multi-racial UN peacekeeping force.

Boustrophedon wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:38 am There are two accents of the English language I cannot abide: One is Afrikaans and the other is Ulster protestant. I dislike them not only because they sound ugly but because they have, in my mind, a life long association with angry rhetoric and the subjugation of others.

So as far as I am concerned the Orange order can take their pathetic marching bands, their pipes and whistles and their stupid pseudo masonic regalia and they can f.cking march off of into the Atlantic for all I care.

I am also sick to death of Northern Irish protestant political interests holding the conservatives to ransom with their minority vote in the house of commons. "Loyalist" they're not f.cking loyal to anything I hold dear.

United Ireland? Yes please, have the North with my blessing, sorry about the proddies.

Some figures on NI:

Of the 1.9 million people in NI (in 2019), around 48% are Protestant, 45% Catholic (2011 census). That's around 912,000 people who identify as Protestant - less than the population of Birmingham. NI contributes about 2% of UK GDP.

Boustrophedon wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:38 am There are two accents of the English language I cannot abide: One is Afrikaans and the other is Ulster protestant. I dislike them not only because they sound ugly but because they have, in my mind, a life long association with angry rhetoric and the subjugation of others.

So as far as I am concerned the Orange order can take their pathetic marching bands, their pipes and whistles and their stupid pseudo masonic regalia and they can f.cking march off of into the Atlantic for all I care.

I am also sick to death of Northern Irish protestant political interests holding the conservatives to ransom with their minority vote in the house of commons. "Loyalist" they're not f.cking loyal to anything I hold dear.

United Ireland? Yes please, have the North with my blessing, sorry about the proddies.

Protestant is not an accent, any more than trades-unionist podium banging is an accent.

Grumble wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:12 am

Boustrophedon wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:38 am There are two accents of the English language I cannot abide: One is Afrikaans and the other is Ulster protestant. I dislike them not only because they sound ugly but because they have, in my mind, a life long association with angry rhetoric and the subjugation of others.

So as far as I am concerned the Orange order can take their pathetic marching bands, their pipes and whistles and their stupid pseudo masonic regalia and they can f.cking march off of into the Atlantic for all I care.

I am also sick to death of Northern Irish protestant political interests holding the conservatives to ransom with their minority vote in the house of commons. "Loyalist" they're not f.cking loyal to anything I hold dear.

United Ireland? Yes please, have the North with my blessing, sorry about the proddies.

Protestant is not an accent, any more than trades-unionist podium banging is an accent.

I meant to say that in my previous post but got distracted. Absolutely yes.

As you can see from this, there isn't even one Northern Irish accent, check out the different counties. (It covers the whole island) According to this article, the most popular Irish accent (among the Irish) is from Donegal, which is in the North but not part of NI.

https://www.irishpost.com/life-style/ir ... nty-151453

and the other is Ulster protestant.

How about engaging in the other points I made, rather than misreading one and picking holes in that straw man?

Tessa K wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:16 am Why is it that water cannon are still legal in NI when they're not in the rest of the UK because they can cause serious harm?

It's obviously a more complex situation than just Brexit as some of the media are reporting but no one group has said they're behind the violence and I'm not sure where to look for unbiased reporting. Is anyone here based in NI?

Yes. I am born and bred in Belfast.

Raised Catholic. Culturally Catholic(ish), Atheist since before teenager

Mum from Dublin, Dad from Belfast, both proper Catholics

Not really a Nationalist as I do not like the power the Catholic Church has in the Republic of Ireland, even though it is diminishing.

The riots are a bit worrying. If they are just fire bombing the police that is alright but if the paramilitaries on either side start escalating it will not end well. I was born during the troubles and although nobody close to me was killed you do not have to go far in a six degrees of separation kind of way to find somebody that was directly affected .e.g one of my friend's uncle was killed by the Shankill butchers in a very gruesome way.

It is a lot to do with power. The Protestants historically had the upper hand and did not mind misusing it to enrich themselves. This has changed a bit recently and they really do not like it.

Although N.I. overall voted against Brexit the DUP was actively for it. They are a bit thick like that and seemingly believed Johnson's f.cking lies.

Sorry. A bit rambling here but I will answer any questions to the best of my limited ability.

Also youth here like a good riot and after the year we have had some of it is just letting off steam.

Boustrophedon wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:41 am

and the other is Ulster protestant.

How about engaging in the other points I made, rather than misreading one and picking holes in that straw man?

I did read it properly. Ulster Protestant is not an accent. My Ulster Protestant relatives do not sound anything like the tv loudmouths you may be thinking of. You cannot tell the difference between Catholic and Protestant based on accent.

Irish Government asks for a summit meeting: Johnson refuses.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... rn-ireland

A source said:

“The view in Dublin is that the political leadership required to stabilise the situation is not going to come from within Northern Ireland right now. It needs to come from the two governments. Dublin believes that such a meeting would provide a very visible way to reassure people that the centre is going to hold,” said a source.

And thees is no possibility that this choice of words is accidental.

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Tessa K wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:05 am

Boustrophedon wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:38 am There are two accents of the English language I cannot abide: One is Afrikaans and the other is Ulster protestant. I dislike them not only because they sound ugly but because they have, in my mind, a life long association with angry rhetoric and the subjugation of others.

So as far as I am concerned the Orange order can take their pathetic marching bands, their pipes and whistles and their stupid pseudo masonic regalia and they can f.cking march off of into the Atlantic for all I care.

I am also sick to death of Northern Irish protestant political interests holding the conservatives to ransom with their minority vote in the house of commons. "Loyalist" they're not f.cking loyal to anything I hold dear.

United Ireland? Yes please, have the North with my blessing, sorry about the proddies.

Some figures on NI:

Of the 1.9 million people in NI (in 2019), around 48% are Protestant, 45% Catholic (2011 census). That's around 912,000 people who identify as Protestant - less than the population of Birmingham. NI contributes about 2% of UK GDP.

One day the world might be this rational, but the population of the Falklands was less than the population of Nether Wallop and it contributed about 0% of UK GDP, and the Homo sapiens still managed to kill 907 people in a war over it.

lpm wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:00 am

Tessa K wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:05 am

Boustrophedon wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:38 am There are two accents of the English language I cannot abide: One is Afrikaans and the other is Ulster protestant. I dislike them not only because they sound ugly but because they have, in my mind, a life long association with angry rhetoric and the subjugation of others.

So as far as I am concerned the Orange order can take their pathetic marching bands, their pipes and whistles and their stupid pseudo masonic regalia and they can f.cking march off of into the Atlantic for all I care.

I am also sick to death of Northern Irish protestant political interests holding the conservatives to ransom with their minority vote in the house of commons. "Loyalist" they're not f.cking loyal to anything I hold dear.

United Ireland? Yes please, have the North with my blessing, sorry about the proddies.

Some figures on NI:

Of the 1.9 million people in NI (in 2019), around 48% are Protestant, 45% Catholic (2011 census). That's around 912,000 people who identify as Protestant - less than the population of Birmingham. NI contributes about 2% of UK GDP.

One day the world might be this rational, but the population of the Falklands was less than the population of Nether Wallop and it contributed about 0% of UK GDP, and the Homo sapiens still managed to kill 907 people in a war over it.

I wasn't expecting rationality from this government, just though it might add to the discussion to have some stats.