Scrutable

tom p wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:00 am By the way, it's titbit, not tidbit. A small morsel such as a tit (the adorable little birds) might eat.

I checked with the OED and both spellings are acceptable.

Woodchopper wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:30 am

tom p wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:00 am By the way, it's titbit, not tidbit. A small morsel such as a tit (the adorable little birds) might eat.

I checked with the OED and both spellings are acceptable.

That's because it records the way people write sh.t, rather than what's right & what's acceptable to Susie Dent isn't necessarily acceptable to the rest of us.

tom p wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:34 am

Woodchopper wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:30 am

tom p wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:00 am By the way, it's titbit, not tidbit. A small morsel such as a tit (the adorable little birds) might eat.

I checked with the OED and both spellings are acceptable.

That's because it records the way people write sh.t, rather than what's right & what's acceptable to Susie Dent isn't necessarily acceptable to the rest of us.

Actually it seems to come from tid, rather than tit:

Etymology
From tid (“fond, tender, nice”) +‎ bit (“morsel”).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tidbit

Etymology

Compare Old English tēdre, tȳdre (“weak; tender”). More at tidder.
Adjective

tid (comparative more tid, superlative most tid)

(obsolete) tender; soft; nice

Derived terms

tidbit

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tid#English

Guess that's you looking like a bit of a tid.

well aren't i a silly sausage?
Every day's a school day, thanks for the links.
I wonder when English english switched to tit, 'cos my 11th ed Concise OED (2004) has it as titbit, with tidbit as American (not as an alternative english option) & it says that the tidbit form is from the 17thC.

probably want to take my other reply over into this thread too.
and also, please could you link to this thread from my erroneous reply remaining in the nationality and borders bill so that the discussion won't return top the original thread

tom p wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:54 pm probably want to take my other reply over into this thread too.
and also, please could you link to this thread from my erroneous reply remaining in the nationality and borders bill so that the discussion won't return top the original thread

It is done!

tom p wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:52 pm well aren't i a silly sausage?
Every day's a school day, thanks for the links.
I wonder when English english switched to tit, 'cos my 11th ed Concise OED (2004) has it as titbit, with tidbit as American (not as an alternative english option) & it says that the tidbit form is from the 17thC.

Both usages seem to have been taken up at about the same time. OED has earliest citations for both from 1641

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:14 pm

tom p wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:54 pm probably want to take my other reply over into this thread too.
and also, please could you link to this thread from my erroneous reply remaining in the nationality and borders bill so that the discussion won't return top the original thread

It is done!

why, thank you kindly, sir

tom p wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:52 pm well aren't i a silly sausage?
Every day's a school day, thanks for the links.
I wonder when English english switched to tit, 'cos my 11th ed Concise OED (2004) has it as titbit, with tidbit as American (not as an alternative english option) & it says that the tidbit form is from the 17thC.

You're not alone in being wrong. I thought the same, that titbit was correct and tidbit was a common mispelling/eggcorn, particularly as I see a lot of t/d errors like shudder/shutter and distain/disdain online which make me think there's some blurring of the two sounds in English.

Maybe that's different between American & UK accents. Like make do/make due. Brits tend not to muddle those up 'cos we pronounce due like dew, whereas Americans can do because they pronounce do & due the same

Eggcorns are pretty fascinating.

Not sure spelling was standardised when tid/titbit was first written down.

raven wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:57 pm

tom p wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:52 pm well aren't i a silly sausage?
Every day's a school day, thanks for the links.
I wonder when English english switched to tit, 'cos my 11th ed Concise OED (2004) has it as titbit, with tidbit as American (not as an alternative english option) & it says that the tidbit form is from the 17thC.

You're not alone in being wrong. I thought the same, that titbit was correct and tidbit was a common mispelling/eggcorn, particularly as I see a lot of t/d errors like shudder/shutter and distain/disdain online which make me think there's some blurring of the two sounds in English.

Maybe that's different between American & UK accents. Like make do/make due. Brits tend not to muddle those up 'cos we pronounce due like dew, whereas Americans can do because they pronounce do & due the same

Eggcorns are pretty fascinating.

I wonder whether there's an American tendency to prudism there, similar to that which leads to
cock => rooster
tit (bird) => chickadee

I thought chickadee (which is a lovely word) came from the bird's call though. Don't think British tits make the same sound, although I could well be wrong.

raven wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:30 pm I thought chickadee (which is a lovely word) came from the bird's call though. Don't think British tits make the same sound, although I could well be wrong.

It is, and it maybe that's its origin; but I still think it's a 'tit' avoidance thing

Both things can be true. Tit seems a fairly mild word to me though.

Gfamily wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:41 pm

raven wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:30 pm I thought chickadee (which is a lovely word) came from the bird's call though. Don't think British tits make the same sound, although I could well be wrong.

It is, and it maybe that's its origin; but I still think it's a 'tit' avoidance thing

There are common birds in North America called titmouse(s, ...ice?), which can refer to any member of Paridae, so it's not exactly a verboten syllable. Tufted titmice are the most common ones that I see.

The name chickadee comes from the alarm calls they make.

dyqik wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:50 pm

Gfamily wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:41 pm

raven wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:30 pm I thought chickadee (which is a lovely word) came from the bird's call though. Don't think British tits make the same sound, although I could well be wrong.

It is, and it maybe that's its origin; but I still think it's a 'tit' avoidance thing

There are common birds in North America called titmouse(s, ...ice?), which can refer to any member of Paridae, so it's not exactly a verboten syllable. Tufted titmice are the most common ones that I see.

The name chickadee comes from the alarm calls they make.

Hmmm, yes, if I'd had less wine/beer on a Friday evening, I might have thought harder.

Gfamily wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:59 pm Hmmm, yes, if I'd had less wine/beer on a Friday evening, I might have thought harder.

But that would have defeated the purpose of the wine/beer!

See article at Tidbit or titbit? for the word's history.

The t/d confusion comes from the Anglo Saxon/Germanic roots of English as in German D is pronounced T in some words. Eg Wald is pronounced Valt but became 'wood' in English. As with many foreign* imports, sometimes we ended up keeping the original sound, sometimes not, and sometimes both. Eg we have both guardian and warden from French where GU was originally pronounced GW.

Tidbit/titbit may or may not have come from Germanic roots but pronunciation gets copied across words. Old English is Germanic rooted

*foreign as in words from places that invaded and colonised us

Gfamily wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:10 pm

raven wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:57 pm

tom p wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:52 pm well aren't i a silly sausage?
Every day's a school day, thanks for the links.
I wonder when English english switched to tit, 'cos my 11th ed Concise OED (2004) has it as titbit, with tidbit as American (not as an alternative english option) & it says that the tidbit form is from the 17thC.

You're not alone in being wrong. I thought the same, that titbit was correct and tidbit was a common mispelling/eggcorn, particularly as I see a lot of t/d errors like shudder/shutter and distain/disdain online which make me think there's some blurring of the two sounds in English.

Maybe that's different between American & UK accents. Like make do/make due. Brits tend not to muddle those up 'cos we pronounce due like dew, whereas Americans can do because they pronounce do & due the same

Eggcorns are pretty fascinating.

I wonder whether there's an American tendency to prudism there, similar to that which leads to
cock => rooster
tit (bird) => chickadee

That was what I had assumed ( a combination of eggcorn & prudishness)

Is there a difference between an eggcorn and a malapropism?

Tessa K wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:35 pm Is there a difference between an eggcorn and a malapropism?

I'd say malapropisms are obvious as soon as they are spoken, but eggcorns really need to be written down to be identified as such.

Gfamily wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:47 pm

Tessa K wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:35 pm Is there a difference between an eggcorn and a malapropism?

I'd say malapropisms are obvious as soon as they are spoken, but eggcorns really need to be written down to be identified as such.

Yes, an eggcorn is a homophone with a false etymology (eggcorn for acorn because it's a small round thing that grows into a tree, like an egg is a small round thing that turns into a bird), but the original malapropisms were just vaguely similar words: "pineapple" for "pinnacle" and "allegory" for "alligator". Admittedly I've never seen the play, and Mrs Malaprop might also have some less well known lines that I'd classify as eggcorns.

basementer wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 3:28 pm

Gfamily wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:47 pm

Tessa K wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:35 pm Is there a difference between an eggcorn and a malapropism?

I'd say malapropisms are obvious as soon as they are spoken, but eggcorns really need to be written down to be identified as such.

Yes, an eggcorn is a homophone with a false etymology (eggcorn for acorn because it's a small round thing that grows into a tree, like an egg is a small round thing that turns into a bird), but the original malapropisms were just vaguely similar words: "pineapple" for "pinnacle" and "allegory" for "alligator". Admittedly I've never seen the play, and Mrs Malaprop might also have some less well known lines that I'd classify as eggcorns.

I studied the play at school but that was in Jurassic times and I don't remember it

tom p wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:12 pm

Gfamily wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:10 pm

raven wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:57 pm

You're not alone in being wrong. I thought the same, that titbit was correct and tidbit was a common mispelling/eggcorn, particularly as I see a lot of t/d errors like shudder/shutter and distain/disdain online which make me think there's some blurring of the two sounds in English.

Maybe that's different between American & UK accents. Like make do/make due. Brits tend not to muddle those up 'cos we pronounce due like dew, whereas Americans can do because they pronounce do & due the same

Eggcorns are pretty fascinating.

I wonder whether there's an American tendency to prudism there, similar to that which leads to
cock => rooster
tit (bird) => chickadee

That was what I had assumed ( a combination of eggcorn & prudishness)

Of course, we could be coming at this from completely wrong direction. If the original word was tidbit and it's become titbit over here, maybe it's not Americans being prudish, maybe it's Brits being rude... That does seem just as likely.

@Tessa - The German d/t thing crossed my mind when I was posting, but errors like shutter/shudder or disdain/distain are just a mishearing/confusion of the two sounds though, as far as I can tell, not something etymoligical. Because d & t are - I'm guessing, not being very good at phonetics*- quite similar sound-wise. (Aspirated and non-apsirated pair? Hard & soft versions of the same sound? Something along those lines, but I don't really know the technical details of what I'm talking about....) Which I'm speculating is maybe why the Germans use letter d to represent sound t.

*Really not good at it. It's not just that I don't know stuff, it's also that I'm a bit phonetically challenged. A bit like Japanese speakers not being able to distinguish l &r, I can't work out where stress is on words because I can't seem to hear it, I can't reliably distinguish vowels, etc etc. It's a mild auditory processing issue I think.

Millennie Al wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:48 am

Gfamily wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:59 pm Hmmm, yes, if I'd had less wine/beer on a Friday evening, I might have thought harder.

But that would have defeated the purpose of the wine/beer!

See article at Tidbit or titbit? for the word's history.

Ooh, good link. And it led me to a site of early PG Wodehouse articles, so thanks for that.