Scrutable

Anyone else joining it?

hadn't heard about it till today... and nowhere near London - so no

I am in London but no, it won't make a blind bit of difference.

Tessa K wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:22 am I am in London but no, it won't make a blind bit of difference.

I can't see this making a different either, but a decent number will encourage us rejoiners

Tessa K wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:22 am it won't make a blind bit of difference.

It's not like a demonstration in favour of closer ties with the EU ever brought down a government, is it?

EACLucifer wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:05 pm

Tessa K wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:22 am it won't make a blind bit of difference.

It's not like a demonstration in favour of closer ties with the EU ever brought down a government, is it?

The way things are going, this government will bring itself down with no help from us

I can’t help feeling that this sort of protest/campaign is better timed for when we have a new government capable and at least potentially willing to do something in response. I get there’s a “keep the flame alive” argument but there’s no chance whatever of the current shower doing anything but use it to attack “remoaner lefties”.

This is what I would recommend if I was asked what would best sabotage our attempts to rejoin.

We need to get the country back on a sane and sensible basis before considering rejoining. Otherwise it is nothing more than the same magical thinking that drove Brexit - just make this one change and everything will be better.

Millennie Al wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:34 pm This is what I would recommend if I was asked what would best sabotage our attempts to rejoin.

We need to get the country back on a sane and sensible basis before considering rejoining. Otherwise it is nothing more than the same magical thinking that drove Brexit - just make this one change and everything will be better.

Just as well that's not the arguments being presented.

There's zero prospect of anything happening toward rejoining. The only thing this will do is keep the more swivel-eyed Brexteers paranoid that Remoaners really are plotting treason against their glorious Brexit just as it was about to discover the sunlit uplands any day now.

The only way anything will change is if and when there's a groundswell that even takes in masses of people who weren't Remainers recognising that it's a total shitshow that's going to cause national decline until something gets done to reverse it, and that's just not where we are now.

I get why we want to rejoin, but what's in it for the EU right now?

Fishnut wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:56 pm I get why we want to rejoin, but what's in it for the EU right now?

Brexit caused the EU economic costs and long term it would probably prefer Britain to be a member.

But imho there’s no chance of the EU starting to talk about rejoining until Britain ends its political psychodrama.

Rejoining might better be thought of as a process rather than an event. The task for a non bonkers government will be to rebuild links with the EU.

Perhaps rejoining the Customs Union first. All the mythical trade deals haven’t come to pass.

Maybe joining the single market and getting freedom of movement later.

Each step will need to be argued on its merits and negotiated with the EU.

Woodchopper wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:13 pm Rejoining might better be thought of as a process rather than an event. The task for a non bonkers government will be to rebuild links with the EU.

Perhaps rejoining the Customs Union first. All the mythical trade deals haven’t come to pass.

Maybe joining the single market and getting freedom of movement later.

Each step will need to be argued on its merits and negotiated with the EU.

That sounds fair.

I could be wrong as I've not really looked into their aims, but I feel like the rejoin movement is more 'just let us back and pretend the last few years didn't happen' than 'we realise we f.cked up and will need to make a lot of concessions but becoming part of the EU again is a mutually beneficial proposal we should spend the next decade or so working towards'.

Personally, I think we need to sort out our own politics before we even start thinking about rejoining the broader community.

You can start the process very small, “Why wouldn’t you want pet passports?”, “Why wouldn’t you want bands to gig in the EU?” and so on. Do that incrementally till the Boomers die off some more, then sign up to the larger treaties. Slippery slope it.

bjn wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 4:15 am You can start the process very small, “Why wouldn’t you want pet passports?”, “Why wouldn’t you want bands to gig in the EU?” and so on. Do that incrementally till the Boomers die off some more, then sign up to the larger treaties. Slippery slope it.

Yes, indeed. Or why shouldn’t British scientists get EU funding?

bjn wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 4:15 am You can start the process very small, “Why wouldn’t you want pet passports?”, “Why wouldn’t you want bands to gig in the EU?” and so on. Do that incrementally till the Boomers die off some more, then sign up to the larger treaties. Slippery slope it.

Why shouldn't we cut red tape for British businesses who want to export to the continent? etc

Though these points all mention the upside. What Britain really needs IMHO is an honest discussion on the tradeoffs involved in all the options. Not sure how that's going to happen.

Long-term what will be essential is a cross-party consensus that closer integration or even rejoining is a shared objective. Otherwise the UK will just flip every time a new government comes in. Which will make the EU very reluctant to agree to anything.

Such a consensus isn't impossible. If the Tories get wiped out at the next election then they might get taken over by some right-of-centrists who could purge the brexiteer headbangers. Not saying that's going to happen or even that it's likely, but its not unprecedented.

Woodchopper wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 7:19 am
Such a consensus isn't impossible. If the Tories get wiped out at the next election then they might get taken over by some right-of-centrists who could purge the brexiteer headbangers. Not saying that's going to happen or even that it's likely, but its not unprecedented.

FWICT this is the basis of the strategy discussions in the LDs at the moment.

Should they drop any pretext of being centre-left and make an open and unashamed pitch for disgruntled Tories, with the view to supplanting the Conservatives as THE Centre-Right Party in the event of a wipeout.

It does make a certain amount of sense, with some considerable risks, but the sheer Janus-faced cynicism it encapsulates is breathtaking, if not unexpected.

Woodchopper wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:13 pm Rejoining might better be thought of as a process rather than an event. The task for a non bonkers government will be to rebuild links with the EU.

Perhaps rejoining the Customs Union first. All the mythical trade deals haven’t come to pass.

Maybe joining the single market and getting freedom of movement later.

Each step will need to be argued on its merits and negotiated with the EU.

Exactly, which is why I think Starmer is right to say that Brexit is done and that Labour would try to make it work.

Because the only way it can work is closer alignment with the EU.

But we need the Brexiteers to be publicly utterly rejected in the ballot box before we can even think of coming back.

jimbob wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:16 am

Woodchopper wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:13 pm Rejoining might better be thought of as a process rather than an event. The task for a non bonkers government will be to rebuild links with the EU.

Perhaps rejoining the Customs Union first. All the mythical trade deals haven’t come to pass.

Maybe joining the single market and getting freedom of movement later.

Each step will need to be argued on its merits and negotiated with the EU.

Exactly, which is why I think Starmer is right to say that Brexit is done and that Labour would try to make it work.

Because the only way it can work is closer alignment with the EU.

But we need the Brexiteers to be publicly utterly rejected in the ballot box before we can even think of coming back.

Bringing our economy back into closer alignment with the EU, though can be phrased as making Brexit work.

EACLucifer wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:19 am

jimbob wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:16 am

Woodchopper wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:13 pm Rejoining might better be thought of as a process rather than an event. The task for a non bonkers government will be to rebuild links with the EU.

Perhaps rejoining the Customs Union first. All the mythical trade deals haven’t come to pass.

Maybe joining the single market and getting freedom of movement later.

Each step will need to be argued on its merits and negotiated with the EU.

Exactly, which is why I think Starmer is right to say that Brexit is done and that Labour would try to make it work.

Because the only way it can work is closer alignment with the EU.

But we need the Brexiteers to be publicly utterly rejected in the ballot box before we can even think of coming back.

Bringing our economy back into closer alignment with the EU, though can be phrased as making Brexit work.

Exactly.

I see it as rejection of the Brexiteers which allows closer alignment - their games with the Irish border would prevent that.

The Brexiters will denounce any minor accommodation as betrayal or some such, which will be widely pushed by the likes of the Daily Mail. Hopefully some sanity will prevail and those voices will be increasingly ignored.

Tbh I don't think full rejoining can realistically happen without a new referendum and a firm vote in favour. Even that won't kill the crazy but it would make it more definitive.

bjn wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:32 am The Brexiters will denounce any minor accommodation as betrayal or some such, which will be widely pushed by the likes of the Daily Mail. Hopefully some sanity will prevail and those voices will be increasingly ignored.

Which is why the Brexiteers need to be rejected massively at the ballot box