Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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Tessa K wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 3:04 pm If trans people have to use toilets, changing rooms etc of the gender they were assigned at birth then trans men have to use women's toilets etc. So what's to stop cis het men claiming to be trans to get into our spaces? Own goal.
I don’t have time to check but as far as I remember that’s covered in the ruling. Basically, if there are special circumstances that permit a woman (or man) only area or activity, then those circumstances might also permit exclusion of a trans man from a woman only area or activity.

I think that the ruling suggested that there should be third places for trans people.

IMHO that means that a trans person could, say, change and shower somewhere. But it obviously causes other problems, not least because a separate trans room is the opposite of gender affirming, and the world being what it is the trans room would be unlikely to have been created by reducing space in the men’s rooms. More likely the disabled adapted areas would be rebadged, which might reduce capacity there.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

Post by bob sterman »

Woodchopper wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 7:34 pm
Tessa K wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 3:04 pm If trans people have to use toilets, changing rooms etc of the gender they were assigned at birth then trans men have to use women's toilets etc. So what's to stop cis het men claiming to be trans to get into our spaces? Own goal.
I don’t have time to check but as far as I remember that’s covered in the ruling. Basically, if there are special circumstances that permit a woman (or man) only area or activity, then those circumstances might also permit exclusion of a trans man from a woman only area or activity.
Paragraph 221...
...if sex means biological sex, then provided it is proportionate, the female only nature of the service would engage paragraph 27 and would permit the exclusion of all males including males living in the female gender regardless of GRC status. Moreover, women living in the male gender could also be excluded under paragraph 28 without this amounting to gender reassignment discrimination. This might be considered proportionate where reasonable objection is taken to their presence, for example, because the gender reassignment process has given them a masculine appearance or attributes to which reasonable objection might be taken in the context of the women-only service being provided. Their exclusion would amount to unlawful gender reassignment discrimination not sex discrimination absent this exception.
Not sure everyone will find this argument persuasive...

i.e. that a biological woman can be excluded from a single-sex service for women, because they have a masculine appearance as a trans man - without it even being gender reassignment discrimination if the objections are "reasonable". And what if they don't even claim gender reassignment or that they are living in the male gender? What if they say they are just a biological woman with a very masculine appearance?
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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bob sterman wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 11:26 am
Woodchopper wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 7:34 pm
Tessa K wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 3:04 pm If trans people have to use toilets, changing rooms etc of the gender they were assigned at birth then trans men have to use women's toilets etc. So what's to stop cis het men claiming to be trans to get into our spaces? Own goal.
I don’t have time to check but as far as I remember that’s covered in the ruling. Basically, if there are special circumstances that permit a woman (or man) only area or activity, then those circumstances might also permit exclusion of a trans man from a woman only area or activity.
Paragraph 221...
...if sex means biological sex, then provided it is proportionate, the female only nature of the service would engage paragraph 27 and would permit the exclusion of all males including males living in the female gender regardless of GRC status. Moreover, women living in the male gender could also be excluded under paragraph 28 without this amounting to gender reassignment discrimination. This might be considered proportionate where reasonable objection is taken to their presence, for example, because the gender reassignment process has given them a masculine appearance or attributes to which reasonable objection might be taken in the context of the women-only service being provided. Their exclusion would amount to unlawful gender reassignment discrimination not sex discrimination absent this exception.
Not sure everyone will find this argument persuasive...

i.e. that a biological woman can be excluded from a single-sex service for women, because they have a masculine appearance as a trans man - without it even being gender reassignment discrimination if the objections are "reasonable". And what if they don't even claim gender reassignment or that they are living in the male gender? What if they say they are just a biological woman with a very masculine appearance?
As a cis woman who is excessively tall, I often get misgendered. And then get feisty and sweary in a very 'unfeminine' way.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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Tessa K wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 11:31 am
bob sterman wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 11:26 am
Woodchopper wrote: Mon Apr 21, 2025 7:34 pm

I don’t have time to check but as far as I remember that’s covered in the ruling. Basically, if there are special circumstances that permit a woman (or man) only area or activity, then those circumstances might also permit exclusion of a trans man from a woman only area or activity.
Paragraph 221...
...if sex means biological sex, then provided it is proportionate, the female only nature of the service would engage paragraph 27 and would permit the exclusion of all males including males living in the female gender regardless of GRC status. Moreover, women living in the male gender could also be excluded under paragraph 28 without this amounting to gender reassignment discrimination. This might be considered proportionate where reasonable objection is taken to their presence, for example, because the gender reassignment process has given them a masculine appearance or attributes to which reasonable objection might be taken in the context of the women-only service being provided. Their exclusion would amount to unlawful gender reassignment discrimination not sex discrimination absent this exception.
Not sure everyone will find this argument persuasive...

i.e. that a biological woman can be excluded from a single-sex service for women, because they have a masculine appearance as a trans man - without it even being gender reassignment discrimination if the objections are "reasonable". And what if they don't even claim gender reassignment or that they are living in the male gender? What if they say they are just a biological woman with a very masculine appearance?
As a cis woman who is excessively tall, I often get misgendered. And then get feisty and sweary in a very 'unfeminine' way.
I might be over-reaching here, but it seems to me theres sometimes a different prejudice at work here, although I dont have a name for it. Thinking about Casta Semanya, and those boxers people got excited about, people who are cis women but not conventionally feminine seem to get some hatred.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

Post by Tessa K »

Imrael wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 11:45 am
Tessa K wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 11:31 am
bob sterman wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 11:26 am

Paragraph 221...



Not sure everyone will find this argument persuasive...

i.e. that a biological woman can be excluded from a single-sex service for women, because they have a masculine appearance as a trans man - without it even being gender reassignment discrimination if the objections are "reasonable". And what if they don't even claim gender reassignment or that they are living in the male gender? What if they say they are just a biological woman with a very masculine appearance?
As a cis woman who is excessively tall, I often get misgendered. And then get feisty and sweary in a very 'unfeminine' way.
I might be over-reaching here, but it seems to me theres sometimes a different prejudice at work here, although I dont have a name for it. Thinking about Casta Semanya, and those boxers people got excited about, people who are cis women but not conventionally feminine seem to get some hatred.
I don't look or dress 'masculine' but people are morons, they see the height and assume 'man'. There is a prejudice against women who are not girly, soft, very obviously femme presenting etc, especially if we are physically strong, confident or outspoken, almost always from men. As if we are trespassing on their territory. It's yet another form of misogyny.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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Imrael wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 11:45 am I might be over-reaching here, but it seems to me theres sometimes a different prejudice at work here, although I dont have a name for it. Thinking about Casta Semanya, and those boxers people got excited about, people who are cis women but not conventionally feminine seem to get some hatred.
I know what you're getting at - relevant for XX women who are not conventionally feminine.

However, in some (not all) of the sports controversies these have been XY individuals with DSDs (differences/disorders of sexual development). If "biological sex" in the supreme court judgment is taken to mean chromosomal sex - then many of these individuals could be excluded from single-sex services for women (even if they have a very conventionally feminine appearance).
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

Post by IvanV »

Imrael wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 11:45 am
Tessa K wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 11:31 am As a cis woman who is excessively tall, I often get misgendered. And then get feisty and sweary in a very 'unfeminine' way.
I might be over-reaching here, but it seems to me theres sometimes a different prejudice at work here, although I dont have a name for it. Thinking about Casta Semanya, and those boxers people got excited about, people who are cis women but not conventionally feminine seem to get some hatred.
I think I know a name for the very common and very old prejudice that women should behave in a certain way, and avoid behaviours those people like to think are reserved for men.

Tessa raises a good point, which is another reason these things are always going to be difficult for some people in practical reality. Years ago, I had a friend who was often similarly misgendered. As she sang soprano in choirs, she could express her annoyance at a sufficiently high pitch to convince most people otherwise. She was also in the university judo team, so you had to be careful. But others would not have such advantages.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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IvanV wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 12:29 pm
Imrael wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 11:45 am
Tessa K wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 11:31 am As a cis woman who is excessively tall, I often get misgendered. And then get feisty and sweary in a very 'unfeminine' way.
I might be over-reaching here, but it seems to me theres sometimes a different prejudice at work here, although I dont have a name for it. Thinking about Casta Semanya, and those boxers people got excited about, people who are cis women but not conventionally feminine seem to get some hatred.
I think I know a name for the very common and very old prejudice that women should behave in a certain way, and avoid behaviours those people like to think are reserved for men.

Tessa raises a good point, which is another reason these things are always going to be difficult for some people in practical reality. Years ago, I had a friend who was often similarly misgendered. As she sang soprano in choirs, she could express her annoyance at a sufficiently high pitch to convince most people otherwise. She was also in the university judo team, so you had to be careful. But others would not have such advantages.
True. It's not pleasant for me but not terrible and I have the luxury of righteous indignation.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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Imrael wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 11:45 am I might be over-reaching here, but it seems to me theres sometimes a different prejudice at work here, although I dont have a name for it. Thinking about Casta Semanya, and those boxers people got excited about, people who are cis women but not conventionally feminine seem to get some hatred.
You're making a big assumption here that isn't correct.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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Tristan wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 2:01 pm
Imrael wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 11:45 am I might be over-reaching here, but it seems to me theres sometimes a different prejudice at work here, although I dont have a name for it. Thinking about Casta Semanya, and those boxers people got excited about, people who are cis women but not conventionally feminine seem to get some hatred.
You're making a big assumption here that isn't correct.
What assumption? Casta Semenya was assigned female at birth and identifies as a woman, which is the definition of cis woman.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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I've now scanned through the judgement, to try and see what they mean by biological sex, and what they think about people who have had gender reassignment surgery.

They never explicitly say, so far as I can find, what they think about people who have had reassignment surgery. But since their criterion for biological sex is the sex you were assigned at birth, then it would appear that they think that people who have had reassignment surgery are still the sex they had at birth, for the purposes of the Equality Act. To me, at least, this seems pretty ridiculous in terms of using the toilets. I would have thought the objection that has been made to trans women using the ladies is their possession of a penis, not their chromosomes. But perhaps I'm wrong, and would welcome correction and further discussion if I am.

But then these are lawyers, and they have to read the legislation they see in front of them, and decide what it means, they are not in the business of deciding what is sensible policy. What they say is that the legislation says that there is M & F, and assumes that everyone can be split into those two categories. For the judges, that is what is written on your birth certificate. Indeed they point out that the EA does not alter the meaning of M & F as set out in the 1975 Sex Discrimination Act, so the Equalities Act is using old definitions of M & F from long before the trans controversies. They observe the law has not provided that you can be different sexes for different purposes within the purposes of the Act. So they have to read the law that there are two sexes, everyone is one or the other, and that applies for everything that the Act is about.

They make very many repeated mentions that sex in the Equalities Act is, as it is in the 1975 SDA, biological sex. But then they say that means the sex you were acquired at birth. So I don't really understand why they say "biological sex" so many times, because the sex you were assigned at birth is not the same thing as biological sex. Why do they keep on saying sex means biological sex, when actually it appears that they mean that sex means the sex you were assigned at birth. I suppose they want to call that biological sex so that they can assert that is immutable. But having gone down the route of biological sex, it was very lazy to have no discussion of what biological sex means. If they did, they would have to observe that there are multiple ways of making the distinction, which are not the same as each other, and that there are intersex people. They never mention intersex people. If you are going to say that sex means sex assigned at birth, that's fair enough. But when you say that's because sex is biological sex, then we really must have a discussion of the biology.

What they do mention, very frequently, is that only women can get pregnant, to the extent that one wonders if they are thinking that the potential for pregnancy is what defines a biological woman. But there is no mention of women who can't get pregnant. For if we take sex to mean sex assigned at birth, then there are plenty of women with no potential for pregnancy, and for a variety of reasons. Some are infertile, some have genetic issues, some have physical issues, and the physical and genetic issues are not perfectly aligned. Maybe the point of their repeated mention of pregnancy is to say only that no one who can get pregnant could be considered a man for these purposes. But they haven't been very careful to make it look like that was all they meant.

It seems to me that the people who are complaining that the law that this means that the Equality Act failed to make the changes required by the ECHR Goodwin case (much referred to in the judgement) are correct. The Goodwin case requires that Goodwin, who had gender reassignment surgery to, be treated as a woman. It is generally assumed that the Equalities Act was, in part, to become compliant with the ECHR judgement on Goodwin. They mention that many of the issues raised in that case have been removed due to the removal of discrimination in pensions and marriage, as I said in my first post, but they acknowledge that is not everything. So, they don't explicitly say so, but it appears to me they have made quite clear that the EA failed fully to respond to the Goodwin case.

So in fact, by saying what the EA means, they have in fact demonstrated that the EA is not fit for purpose. Though they don't explicitly say that, it seems pretty clear. I think it should now be understood that the EA failed adequately to deal with Goodwin, and we need some new legislation.

The Supreme Court has said the EA means that a person cannot be M for one purpose and F for another purpose within the Act. I don't think think that is a tenable practical way of running things. I think, at the least, people without penises should be accepted in the ladies - unless someone can give me a good reason otherwise. And that is not an interpretation in which everyone is the same M and F for every purpose. Which accords with the biology, so beloved of the court, which does not make that distinction unambiguously either.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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IvanV wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 4:56 pm It seems to me that the people who are complaining that the law that this means that the Equality Act failed to make the changes required by the ECHR Goodwin case (much referred to in the judgement) are correct. The Goodwin case requires that Goodwin, who had gender reassignment surgery to, be treated as a woman. It is generally assumed that the Equalities Act was, in part, to become compliant with the ECHR judgement on Goodwin. They mention that many of the issues raised in that case have been removed due to the removal of discrimination in pensions and marriage, as I said in my first post, but they acknowledge that is not everything. So, they don't explicitly say so, but it appears to me they have made quite clear that the EA failed fully to respond to the Goodwin case.
I meant to say additionally that most people have interpreted the Act in a way that is consistent with it addressing the Goodwin case. Because the Ac was supposed to address the Goodwin case, and so it made sense to read it that way. Because they would have been back in court, one way or another, if they had not read it as being consistent with the Goodwin judgment.

I hope that makes quite clear that we need to fix the legislation. Because reading the Act in the way the Supreme Court says they should means we'll be back in the ECHR on just the same grounds that the UK lost the Goodwin case.

I think the problem is that the legislators at the time wanted to go beyond the Goodwin judgment, but created an untenable framework for doing that. There is also a problem in trying to comply with the Goodwin judgment, as the Supreme Court mention, that it failed to set out what scope of surgery, etc, was gender reassignment surgery. Having noticed that problem, you would have thought the Supreme Court might have noticed the serious problem that "biological sex" is not the clear-cut distinction that the Acts they are interpreting assume it is.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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IvanV wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 4:56 pm What they do mention, very frequently, is that only women can get pregnant, to the extent that one wonders if they are thinking that the potential for pregnancy is what defines a biological woman. But there is no mention of women who can't get pregnant. For if we take sex to mean sex assigned at birth, then there are plenty of women with no potential for pregnancy, and for a variety of reasons. Some are infertile, some have genetic issues, some have physical issues, and the physical and genetic issues are not perfectly aligned. Maybe the point of their repeated mention of pregnancy is to say only that no one who can get pregnant could be considered a man for these purposes. But they haven't been very careful to make it look like that was all they meant.
I think that's a misreading of what why they were bringing up pregnancy. What they were saying is that only women are covered by the protections for pregnancy. The language of the act is in these provisions is specific to women. Now, only biological women can get pregnant (the fact that some can't is utterly irrelevant). The drafters of the EA 2010 will have been fully aware of the GRA 2004 and will have known that some trans-men (ie, also biological women) could get pregnant, yet they didn't draft the pregnancy provisions to cover "people" or "women and men".

The implies that the intention of the drafters of the EA 2010 intended women to be based on biological sex, not certified sex. Indeed, if they'd intended it to be based on certified sex you'd have a scenario where trans-men without a GRC (ie, certified women) would be covered by the pregnancy provisions, whilst trans-men with a GRC (ie, certified men) wouldn't be covered.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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IvanV wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 4:56 pm I. I think, at the least, people without penises should be accepted in the ladies - unless someone can give me a good reason otherwise.
This was something that did occur to me. Trans-men should now use the ladies loo. Which I think might cause more discomfort overall than the incredibly rare potential of a trans-woman causing problems in the ladies.

Although the whole thing isn't really about who uses which loo anyway? is it?
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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science_fox wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2025 11:37 am
IvanV wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 4:56 pm I. I think, at the least, people without penises should be accepted in the ladies - unless someone can give me a good reason otherwise.
This was something that did occur to me. Trans-men should now use the ladies loo. Which I think might cause more discomfort overall than the incredibly rare potential of a trans-woman causing problems in the ladies.

Although the whole thing isn't really about who uses which loo anyway? is it?
No, it's not about it at all.

There's no penalty whatsoever for anyone using any loo at the moment, and there never has been. There are no laws requiring you to use a particular designated toilet.

Separately, the Equality Act does not apply to individuals.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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dyqik wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2025 12:34 pm
science_fox wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2025 11:37 am
IvanV wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 4:56 pm I. I think, at the least, people without penises should be accepted in the ladies - unless someone can give me a good reason otherwise.
This was something that did occur to me. Trans-men should now use the ladies loo. Which I think might cause more discomfort overall than the incredibly rare potential of a trans-woman causing problems in the ladies.

Although the whole thing isn't really about who uses which loo anyway? is it?
No, it's not about it at all.

There's no penalty whatsoever for anyone using any loo at the moment, and there never has been. There are no laws requiring you to use a particular designated toilet.

Separately, the Equality Act does not apply to individuals.
Yes, a man who simply walks into a woman's toilet isn't committing a crime in Britain. But as Ivan mentioned, if someone else were to object to their presence then there might be a breach of the peace.

However, there may be negative consequences. If they do that in a work place they might be reprimanded, or in a private business they could be asked to leave or be banned from going there again.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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science_fox wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2025 11:37 am
IvanV wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 4:56 pm I. I think, at the least, people without penises should be accepted in the ladies - unless someone can give me a good reason otherwise.
This was something that did occur to me. Trans-men should now use the ladies loo. Which I think might cause more discomfort overall than the incredibly rare potential of a trans-woman causing problems in the ladies.
As discussed up thread, trans men may not be expected to go to the ladies loo. It looks like in some circumstances they may be expected to find unisex facilities.
science_fox wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2025 11:37 am Although the whole thing isn't really about who uses which loo anyway? is it?
People focus upon toilets because that is one often segregated thing that they encounter every day. But yes, the the implications are much more wide ranging, for example, the original case was about membership of an institutional board.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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Woodchopper wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2025 1:58 pm
science_fox wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2025 11:37 am
IvanV wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2025 4:56 pm I. I think, at the least, people without penises should be accepted in the ladies - unless someone can give me a good reason otherwise.
This was something that did occur to me. Trans-men should now use the ladies loo. Which I think might cause more discomfort overall than the incredibly rare potential of a trans-woman causing problems in the ladies.
As discussed up thread, trans men may not be expected to go to the ladies loo. It looks like in some circumstances they may be expected to find unisex facilities.
science_fox wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2025 11:37 am Although the whole thing isn't really about who uses which loo anyway? is it?
People focus upon toilets because that is one often segregated thing that they encounter every day. But yes, the the implications are much more wide ranging, for example, the original case was about membership of an institutional board.
There's also the potential issue of single sex hospital wards.

London transport police have said male officers will now search trans women
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

Post by IvanV »

It appears that a requirement for gender-neutral facilities is already widely recognised in schools in Scotland, as it notes further down this BBC article, reporting a case where a judge orders a school that wasn't doing that to provide them. It also notes complaints about a school that provided only gender neutral facilities. So, at least in Scottish schools, it appears that there must be three kinds of toilets.

So, whilst the Equalities Act thinks that people can be separated into just 2 sexes, some parts of the real world, including judges in courts, is already recognising that they can't.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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Apparently the 1967 regs were being updated when the school was planned & built, but that update hadn't (and still hasn't) completed, so they still apply, hence this ruling.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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IvanV wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 9:30 am ... So, whilst the Equalities Act thinks that people can be separated into just 2 sexes, some parts of the real world, including judges in courts, is already recognising that they can be separated into 3.
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

Post by IvanV »

shpalman wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 11:08 am
IvanV wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 9:30 am ... So, whilst the Equalities Act thinks that people can be separated into just 2 sexes, some parts of the real world, including judges in courts, is already recognising that they can be separated into 3.
I don't think they are saying they can be separated into 3 categories, which would be another mistake. The third facility is something anyone can use. It thus provides for optionality to anyone, not just those who find the binary separation unsatisfactory for some reason, be it on the grounds of their own choice, the choices of others, or the objections of others.

It is unfortunate that this is a situation where there is a conflict of rights. Different people have conflicting concepts of what is a (relatively) safe space for themselves. Using a gender neutral facility might not be a person's first choice, but at least no one can complain about them being there, and it is not the space they really don't want to use. I suspect we cannot devise a perfect solution, given budgetary constraints, as with many things in life. But it is probably an improvement.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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IvanV wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 12:26 pm It is unfortunate that this is a situation where there is a conflict of rights. Different people have conflicting concepts of what is a (relatively) safe space for themselves.
I agree.
IvanV wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 12:26 pm Using a gender neutral facility might not be a person's first choice, but at least no one can complain about them being there, and it is not the space they really don't want to use.
It depends upon the facility. I know several women who actively avoid anywhere that has a line of unisex cubicles in one large room. Trans women aren't an issue at all, but they don't want that kind of proximity to men in general when they're doing toilet stuff. This could be a discrimination issue if women in general feel that they can't use the facilities provided, but men are unaffected.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

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Ive seen women queue for the ladies rather than use the deserted gender neutral bog.
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Re: Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

Post by noggins »

Tessa K wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2025 3:48 pm London transport police have said male officers will now search trans women
wtf? Isnt the whole point of gender-segregated-searching the preferences of the searched?
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