Scrutable

Gfamily wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:00 pm Some data on education spending

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14369

individualmember wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:56 pm

Gfamily wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:00 pm Some data on education spending

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14369

Thanks. The increased number of TAs compared with teachers and lowering 'per pupil' spending/increased class sizes since 2009/10 is what has been happening in this neck of the woods (at least in Hillingdon,where my wife works). Although to be fair its only in the last 2 to 3 years that my wife has been concerned about impending staff cuts that won't be covered by natural wastage and will have to be redundancies.

IFS wrote:Total school spending per pupil in England has fallen by 8% in real terms between 2009–10 and 2019–20. The bulk of these funding cuts were driven by a 57% reduction in spending per pupil on services provided by local authorities and a more than 20% cut in sixth-form funding per pupil.=

Gfamily wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:28 pm

IFS wrote:Total school spending per pupil in England has fallen by 8% in real terms between 2009–10 and 2019–20. The bulk of these funding cuts were driven by a 57% reduction in spending per pupil on services provided by local authorities and a more than 20% cut in sixth-form funding per pupil.=

bolo wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:40 pm Sheldrake: Please provide a link to the source of the graph.
Gfamily: Please provide a link to the source of the quote.

sheldrake wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:23 pm
Education funding has increased faster than inflation for over a decade.

The problem with our education system is not funding, it's the rotten anti-aspirational culture of the educational establishment.

bolo wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:50 pm Missed the edit window:

Perhaps someone non-forrin could explain the distinction between spending by schools and spending by local authorities. I presume the schools aren't directly raising the money they spend, so where are they getting it from, if not the local authorities? And if the local authority money isn't being spent by schools, who's spending it and what's it being spent on?

JQH wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:00 pm

sheldrake wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:23 pm
Education funding has increased faster than inflation for over a decade.

Possibly true but I would like to see some evidence. Also, what have student numbers been doing? How fast is the funding per head increasing?

The problem with our education system is not funding, it's the rotten anti-aspirational culture of the educational establishment.

Some evidence that this exists would also be nice as it does not match my experience of working in the sector. Toby Young used to trot out this canard - until he tried running a Free School and was forced to admit that having aspirations did not automatically translate into improved outcomes.

JQH wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:00 pm Some evidence that this exists would also be nice as it does not match my experience of working in the sector. Toby Young used to trot out this canard - until he tried running a Free School and was forced to admit that having aspirations did not automatically translate into improved outcomes.

Gfamily wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:04 pm

bolo wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:50 pm Missed the edit window:

Perhaps someone non-forrin could explain the distinction between spending by schools and spending by local authorities. I presume the schools aren't directly raising the money they spend, so where are they getting it from, if not the local authorities? And if the local authority money isn't being spent by schools, who's spending it and what's it being spent on?

Although the majority of schools used to be under the control of and funded by Local Authorities, Central government directly funds Academies and 'Free Schools', and the majority of secondary schools (and about 25% of primary schools) are now academies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_(English_school)

bolo wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:27 pm

Gfamily wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:04 pm

bolo wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:50 pm Missed the edit window:

Perhaps someone non-forrin could explain the distinction between spending by schools and spending by local authorities. I presume the schools aren't directly raising the money they spend, so where are they getting it from, if not the local authorities? And if the local authority money isn't being spent by schools, who's spending it and what's it being spent on?

Although the majority of schools used to be under the control of and funded by Local Authorities, Central government directly funds Academies and 'Free Schools', and the majority of secondary schools (and about 25% of primary schools) are now academies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_(English_school)

So "spending per pupil by schools has gone up" is an artifact of a change in the route the money takes from taxpayer to classroom? And "total spending per pupil has gone down" is more indicative of the resources actually available?

sheldrake wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:25 pm

JQH wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:00 pm Some evidence that this exists would also be nice as it does not match my experience of working in the sector. Toby Young used to trot out this canard - until he tried running a Free School and was forced to admit that having aspirations did not automatically translate into improved outcomes.

Resistance to increased rigour Gove was trying to introduce was one example already given. Continued resistance to attempts to objectively measure children's educational progress, particularly when it's tied to the performance of teaching staff.

JQH wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:29 pm

sheldrake wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:25 pm

JQH wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:00 pm Some evidence that this exists would also be nice as it does not match my experience of working in the sector. Toby Young used to trot out this canard - until he tried running a Free School and was forced to admit that having aspirations did not automatically translate into improved outcomes.

Resistance to increased rigour Gove was trying to introduce was one example already given. Continued resistance to attempts to objectively measure children's educational progress, particularly when it's tied to the performance of teaching staff.

And how would you suggest educational progress be objectively measured?

sheldrake wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:29 pmNo

bolo wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:32 pm

sheldrake wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:29 pmNo

Because ... ?

bolo wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:54 pm A graph doesn't tell you anything unless you understand what it's graphing. In this case, it appears to be graphing "school spending," which is apparently not the same as "spending". Look at the data tables.

sheldrake wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:37 am But school spending per pupil is what determines the front line resources available to the children.

sheldrake wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:37 am UK Education hasn't been improving in line with funding for a generation or so.

bolo wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:58 am Do you have any evidence for this? Equally plausible is that the drop in local authority spending coincided with a shift of administrative responsibilities from LAs to schools, so that a smaller fraction of school spending actually reaches the classroom.