Scrutable

Shock! Horror! Probe!

Good piece from Steve Novella, with an anti-vaxx loon cropping up just to reinforce most of the relevant points. Whoda thunkit?

PS Is this weighty or nerdy?

I'd go for nerdy personally.

Either way, nice article.

Damn! I wanted to report myself, but one of you bastards has already done it. Sods!

Not me guvnor.

However, we may be going on a journey. Strap yourself in, remember your yellow fever certificate.

If you want this this thread moved should start discussing the anti-vaxxwes and stuff.

Is there a 'best place' to find resources to argue back against the common AntiVax tropes?
In the same way we have https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php for climate change denial tropes?

I think Skeptical Raptor has something of that sort.

ETA This might be a starting point.

Woodchopper wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:43 pm If you want this this thread moved should start discussing the anti-vaxxwes and stuff.

I was curious why else someone might have reported the OP.

Anyway...I thought it an interesting piece as it gives the lie to the oft-used claim that anti-vax views are harmless and that people are entitled to their opnion'n'that class of thing, demonstrating actual harm to real people stemming from theses "harmless views".

If I was reported by some drive-by anti-vaxxer: please stick aropund and explain exactly what is wrong with Novella's piece and why harm has not been caused and will not be causedin future by espousing such views.

Someone else thought the thread might be better off in the Nerd Lab. I thought we should wait and see how the discussion developed.

Thank you!

I met my first real-life anti-vaxxer today. She owns two dogs and she uses a homeopathic vet and doesn't vaccinate (the oldest is 7). Her dogs have been playing with mine for quite a while and I had no idea that they were unvaccinated. Fortunately I keep mine fully up to date (he's just had his boosters) but I really got that urge to take my dog away and tell her off for putting people's pets at risk. I didn't though, because it didn't a constructive move.

She said her male dog (an airdale) had bad skin allergies and the vet had said they'd need weekly injections costing about £200+ each, to "reset the immune system". She went to a homeopathic vet instead who gave her some homeopathy and everything is fine now, and the treatment is much cheaper (£8/bottle). I didn't want to pry too much but it did make me wonder what had caused her dog to get better. She said he was licking/biting his skin raw so there was definitely a problem which has cleared up. I don't know the details and wasn't really in a position to pry but it really highlighted to me how easy it is to form a narrative of "mainstream medicine bad, alternative medicine good". I know that just saying "but homeopathy is just sugar water" would have no effect on this woman as she has seen the "proof" with her own eyes that it worked. I just wish I knew what could be said to start a conversation that might stop her putting her - and other people's - dogs at risk.

Woodchopper wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:33 pm Someone else thought the thread might be better off in the Nerd Lab. I thought we should wait and see how the discussion developed.

Yeah it was me, I do that to lots of threads btw.

Stephanie wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:49 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:33 pm Someone else thought the thread might be better off in the Nerd Lab. I thought we should wait and see how the discussion developed.

Yeah it was me, I do that to lots of threads btw.

I always get excited that there's going to be some drama and then it turns out to be just another miscategorised thread clearly I should not be a librarian.

Gfamily wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:16 pm Is there a 'best place' to find resources to argue back against the common AntiVax tropes?
In the same way we have https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php for climate change denial tropes?

Doc Bastard has a good and pretty comprehensive summary that refutes a ton of antivax tropes http://www.docbastard.net/2019/03/busti ... myths.html
Probably the best one-stop shop.

Other less comprehensive but useful links include
https://www.verywellhealth.com/anti-vac ... on-2633730
https://www.publichealth.org/public-awa ... -debunked/
https://www.newsweek.com/vaccination-an ... th-1342856

And this is also very nice - the WHO has a list of websites that have good information about vaccines https://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/init ... ebsite/en/

And that Penn and Teller b.llsh.t telly programme is good and fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhk7-5eBCrs

NB: In the comments to that is, from a Dr Catherwood:

Hey newcomers! Before engaging the anti-vax people here, remember this adage: "You can play chess with a pigeon, but even if you win, the pigeon will just knock over the pieces, sh.t on the board, and strut around like it won".

One of my son's best friends has never had any vaccinations, seems his mum is very anti-vax. I've never been able to bring it up in conversation as I don't think it'll go well. However, it turns out, in their conversations this lad is going to getting himself vaccinated once he's old enough to be able to be considered to be able to give his own consent.

FlammableFlower wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:26 pm However, it turns out, in their conversations this lad is going to getting himself vaccinated once he's old enough to be able to be considered to be able to give his own consent.

A few high profile incidents of teenagers doing that, for example Ethan Lindenberger, who is very vocal about vaccination and thus getting the typical vast amounts of hideous abuse from antivaxxer.

In the UK, there is no minimum age limit by which a child can take themselves off to the docs and (for example here) ask to be vaccinated. It boils down to whether, in the docs opinion, the individual has the capacity to consent and can be made aware of the risks and benefits.

If the child is 16 or older, then rarely an issue with capacity and understanding. If this lad is e.g.a younger teenager, then up to the healthcare workers discretion.

If this is useful information and can appropriately be conveyed, then by all means drop this nugget into a conversation and recommend a visit to a GP

I dug out a twitter thread of mine from last year, links to more info on this particular topic - https://twitter.com/michaelghead/status ... 4228918275 . A child is not owned by their parents. The child has rights too.

In this case he's 15 going on 16 so I think he'll be sorting himself out quite soon. It's interesting to hear what they seem to talk about (politics, how stupid Brexit is and how anti-Tory they are, seem to crop up a lot). I've made points to my son on how at uni you now see a lot of outbreaks of things like mumps (courtesy of Mr Fraudypants' MMR scare) and MrsFF then supplies the unpleasant medical details (she's good at that). That then gets fed back... and I suspect this lad will be heading to uni.

It wasn't until I went to university and got a separate GP from my mum that I found out she'd never consented to any of the boosters I was meant to have had in my teens (or thereabouts).

I'm up to date now though, plus having traveled a lot and done a lot of work with wild animals I've had pretty much all the vaccinations available. One step closer to my ultimate goal of immortality.

There's a bill being considered in the Virginia state legislature that would deem minors to be adults for the purpose of

Medical or health services related to receiving vaccinations and immunizations recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, provided that the individual demonstrates to the satisfaction of a health care practitioner the ability to understand at the same comprehension level as an adult the risks and benefits associated with vaccinations and immunizations.

See here. The new provision is in italics (subparagraph (E)(5)).

bolo wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:08 pm There's a bill being considered in the Virginia state legislature that would deem minors to be adults for the purpose of

Medical or health services related to receiving vaccinations and immunizations recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, provided that the individual demonstrates to the satisfaction of a health care practitioner the ability to understand at the same comprehension level as an adult the risks and benefits associated with vaccinations and immunizations.

See here. The new provision is in italics (subparagraph (E)(5)).

That seems pretty sensible. There should be a higher threshold to consent to something that is against medical advice than something that follows medical advice.