Harvey Weinstein has been found guilty of rape. I didn't follow the case that closely, though I have listened to Ronan Farrow's excellent podcast Catch and Kill. It goes to show just how used to people getting away with this stuff that even with such incontrovertible evidence I was still expecting him to be found not guilty. The case is setting precedents in more than one way,
The guilty verdict could also have a profound impact on the way sex crimes are prosecuted. The New York district attorney’s office took an enormous gamble in how they set up the trial.
Prosecutors chose as main accusers two women, both of whom continued to have close – and at times sexual – contact with Weinstein after they were attacked. In the past, prosecutors have almost always balked at such cases where coerced and consensual sex exists side-by-side, considering them too messy to secure guilty verdicts.
The fact that the tactic succeeded with the jury is a sign of the shifting sands of #MeToo. It suggests that prosecutors might have far more leeway in future to take on cases where victims continue to be in the thrall of their attackers after sexual assaults – a scenario which sex crimes experts say is all too common and yet up til now has been almost entirely neglected by the criminal courts.
As psychiatrist Barbara Ziv told the jury in expert testimony, “it is the norm to have contact with the assailant.”
The response from the Judiciary is really not good enough. It feels very dismissive given the magnitude of the harm being done.
"The enhanced training will be delivered - initially electronically - from May 2020 and from then on will be included in every continuation training course for the Family judiciary.'
And what about cases being heard before May? Are they just expected to face clueless judges?
Re: Harvey Weinstein is a rapist
Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:06 pm
by rockdoctor
My feeling was that the case was suited for breaking this new ground because Weinstein is fairly unambiguously physically unattractive, and there was a large age, money and power disparity between him and the women.
It just seems hugely implausible that a relatively young and attractive woman would have sex with him without either coercion or bribery.
You end up asking whether rape or inducement is the case, for each charge.
Re: Harvey Weinstein is a rapist
Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:07 pm
by Fishnut
I had completely the opposite thought - that the idea of the 'casting couch' is as old (probably older) as Hollywood and everyone would just say that the women slept with him willingly in order to advance their careers, so that both parties gained: Weinstein got to have sex with lots of young attractive women and they got to get jobs in films. The idea that women will sleep their way to the top is so pervasive that I honestly thought that the argument would win out, despite it being bollocks.
Re: Harvey Weinstein is a rapist
Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:37 pm
by jimbob
Fishnut wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:07 pm
I had completely the opposite thought - that the idea of the 'casting couch' is as old (probably older) as Hollywood and everyone would just say that the women slept with him willingly in order to advance their careers, so that both parties gained: Weinstein got to have sex with lots of young attractive women and they got to get jobs in films. The idea that women will sleep their way to the top is so pervasive that I honestly thought that the argument would win out, despite it being bollocks.
Yup. And expect far more to come out now he's been found guilty.
I do wonder if Bill Cosby's conviction helped.
Of course NDAs for illegal acts should be rendered void.
NDAs have their place in commercial negotiations, but not as part of damages settlements.
Re: Harvey Weinstein is a rapist
Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:43 pm
by murmur
Roll on Los Angeles...
Re: Harvey Weinstein is a rapist
Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:29 am
by JQH
I reckon there'll be an epidemic of brown trousers in Los Angeles pretty soon.
Re: Harvey Weinstein is a rapist
Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:13 pm
by snoozeofreason
Laura Hoyano, in the Guardian, stresses the importance of distinguishing between the US and UK criminal justice systems.
Laura Hoyano wrote:"I’m very keen that complainants are not deterred from coming forward on misunderstandings from the Weinstein case,” she said. “It’s very important for British women to understand that no rape trial across the UK would proceed in the same way as in any state in the US.
Hoyano is definitely worth paying attention to. She is a significant figure in legal academe, and her research helped shape the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act, whose provisions are one of the main reasons why UK and US law is different in this respect (at least as far as the Criminal Courts are concerned - the case that Sciolus mentioned is from the Family Court which is a different and possibly murkier kettle of fish). She is also the author of a recent survey of the effectiveness of the provisions introduced the the YJCEA (executive summary here, full text on her author page , numbers probably need to be treated with some caution because the study is not based on a probability sample).
Fishnut wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:07 pm
I had completely the opposite thought - that the idea of the 'casting couch' is as old (probably older) as Hollywood and everyone would just say that the women slept with him willingly in order to advance their careers, so that both parties gained: Weinstein got to have sex with lots of young attractive women and they got to get jobs in films. The idea that women will sleep their way to the top is so pervasive that I honestly thought that the argument would win out, despite it being bollocks.
Yup. And expect far more to come out now he's been found guilty.
I do wonder if Bill Cosby's conviction helped.
Of course NDAs for illegal acts should be rendered void.
NDAs have their place in commercial negotiations, but not as part of damages settlements.
Problem is, if you want to settle a civil claim involving harrassment, pretty much the only way to find any middle ground is for both sides to promise to shut up about it, with our without a carefully worded statement that they must stick to. Otherwise you are just going to roll on to a trail, or one side will blink (and that will not necessarily be the more blameworthy party). It is a difficult problem.
Re: Harvey Weinstein is a rapist
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:09 pm
by lpm
23 years.
Re: Harvey Weinstein is a rapist
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:16 pm
by rockdoctor
What is "23 years" in US prison sentence years?
In UK prison sentence years it would be 11.5
Re: Harvey Weinstein is a rapist
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:45 pm
by Opti
Isn't there still some pending LA litigation? I don't think he'll get out alive. Save a Presidential pardon.
Re: Harvey Weinstein is a rapist
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:59 pm
by El Pollo Diablo
How long before he tops himself?
Re: Harvey Weinstein is a rapist
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:59 pm
by philip
rockdoctor wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:16 pm
What is "23 years" in US prison sentence years?
It varies by state, in this case (NY) I believe it is 6/7ths before being considered for parole.
Re: Harvey Weinstein is a rapist
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:04 pm
by AMS
Opti wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:45 pm
Isn't there still some pending LA litigation? I don't think he'll get out alive. Save a Presidential pardon.
Presidential pardon only applies to federal cases. I think this conviction is under NY state law.