US police & murders of black men

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EACLucifer
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by EACLucifer » Wed May 20, 2020 7:20 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 7:19 pm
Martin Y wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 5:59 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 3:21 pm
...
The fact that basically nothing has changed in the 30 years since Rodney King was murdered is pretty depressing.
Slip of the keyboard, I appreciate, but of course Rodney King was not murdered. The police beat the crap out of him, and the only reason we've heard of him is that someone got it on video.
Slip of the brain! Thanks for the correction.

Having cameras everywhere, including on the front of police, doesn't seem to have stopped cases like that as much as might have been expected/hoped.
One major problem being that even when they are caught on those cameras doing incredibly shady sh.t, qualified immunity and a force culture where that kind of behaviour is not just tolerated but expected, mean they get away with it anyway.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by discovolante » Tue May 26, 2020 8:47 pm

jdc wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:15 pm
Today I read this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/26/nyre ... tw-nytimes
I'm glad she was fired. Did you hear about George Floyd today as well, f.cking hell. Just grim.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by jdc » Tue May 26, 2020 9:01 pm

discovolante wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:47 pm
jdc wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:15 pm
Today I read this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/26/nyre ... tw-nytimes
I'm glad she was fired. Did you hear about George Floyd today as well, f.cking hell. Just grim.
No, I hadn't. f.cking hell, that is grim.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Martin Y » Tue May 26, 2020 9:14 pm

jdc wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:01 pm
discovolante wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:47 pm
jdc wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:15 pm
Today I read this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/26/nyre ... tw-nytimes
I'm glad she was fired. Did you hear about George Floyd today as well, f.cking hell. Just grim.
No, I hadn't. f.cking hell, that is grim.
What I can't seem to glean (and to some extent it hardly matters) is what they arrested Floyd for in the first place. Maybe I should say what they approached him for in the first place because it seems likely the arrest, restraint and killing all followed from his alleged failure to comply with their orders. I don't know if the video evidence makes it clear but to be honest I would rather not watch it.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by discovolante » Tue May 26, 2020 9:18 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:14 pm
jdc wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:01 pm
discovolante wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:47 pm


I'm glad she was fired. Did you hear about George Floyd today as well, f.cking hell. Just grim.
No, I hadn't. f.cking hell, that is grim.
What I can't seem to glean (and to some extent it hardly matters) is what they arrested Floyd for in the first place. Maybe I should say what they approached him for in the first place because it seems likely the arrest, restraint and killing all followed from his alleged failure to comply with their orders. I don't know if the video evidence makes it clear but to be honest I would rather not watch it.
I read one person say it was a 'bad cheque'. But honestly even if he had failed to comply with orders I can't see any justification for what they did. This isn't 'police officer shoots someone in the heat of the moment', it was deadly restraint that went on for several minutes (based on the footage that has been released but it's hard to come up with another interpretation).
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Martin Y » Tue May 26, 2020 9:35 pm

And, I gather, the video shows the victim and a crowd pleading with the cop to take his knee off the man's neck.

Do you suppose he couldn't back down? Would it be an intolerable display of weakness to relent and allow mere citizens to think he was admitting he'd gone too far? Perhaps they would all laugh at how soft he was, or worse, the prisoner might laugh at him for being suckered by that "I can't breathe" stuff.

I'm not trying to be facetious here. I seriously worry that entirely too many US police act like paramilitaries in hostile territory without training to cope with hostile civilians and instead just seek to dominate like bullies. I suspect this man died so the cops could save face.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by discovolante » Tue May 26, 2020 10:16 pm

Yeah there could be something in that, what a horrible thought.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue May 26, 2020 11:01 pm

I hadn't heard about this case. I'm going to split some discussions in a sec, because I don't think any of us murdered any black people today.

According to this article (the first from googling George Floyd:
In a statement earlier on Tuesday, the Minneapolis Police Department said its officers were responding to a "report of a forgery in progress".

"After [the suspect] got out [of his car], he physically resisted officers," the statement said. "Officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and note he appeared to be suffering medical distress."
So, as with Ahmaud Arbery, he was suspected of a non-violent crime, did not appear to be armed, and was still killed. The slow choking somebody to death is very similar to the Eric Garner case in 2014.

I also note that:
Minneapolis Police Chief Medaria Arradondo said during a news conference on Tuesday that the four officers involved in the incident were now "former employees".

The city's mayor, Jacob Frey, confirmed that the officers had been terminated, saying "this is the right decision for our city".
So the police department isn't even bothering to try to defend any of them, which is a bit better than usual. Now they just need to see the same kind of punishment anybody else would see if they either killed somebody or stood by watching a colleague do it.

Part of this is down to training the police to deal with hostile situations. However, so many of these cases involve black people (far more than would be expected from random interactions with the police escalating) that clearly racism is a huge factor too. Demilitarising the police is probably quicker and easier, so might be a good place to start.
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US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue May 26, 2020 11:04 pm

I've split some posts from a couple of other threads where they were off-topic.

Discussion of the killing of Ahmaud Arbery came from Anti-lockdown demo and the killing of George Floyd from Corona virus diaries: Today I....

Arguably these individuals deserve their own thread, but given the commonalities between them I'm uniting them under a single topic.

Note: the George Floyd discussion was originally on the "Relaxation Station" subforum, which is not indexed by Google, whereas Weighty Matters is. If any of the posters are unhappy about the move, please report the post and we can put it back.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed May 27, 2020 9:59 pm

Write-up of yesterday's protests on the BBC.

Protestors outraged by the killing of George Floyd assembled outside the police precinct, chanting "I can't breathe". The police responded by tear gassing them.
One protester told CBS: "It's real ugly. The police have to understand that this is the climate they have created."

Another said: "I got on my knees and I put up a peace sign and they tear-gassed me."

Police said one person had suffered non-life-threatening injuries after being shot away from the protest area but gave no further details.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52817097
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu May 28, 2020 12:26 am

It's looking less and less like a training issue, and more like deliberate murder.

A restaurant owner released footage showing the actual arrest of George Floyd. He didn't resist like the police claimed, was cuffed, and sat down as instructed. The police then walk him across the street, out of view of the camera, where they murdered him.

Here's the original police report:
Two officers arrived and located the suspect, a male believed to be in his 40s, in his car. He was ordered to step from his car. After he got out, he physically resisted officers. Officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress. Officers called for an ambulance. He was transported to Hennepin County Medical Center by ambulance where he died a short time later.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu May 28, 2020 12:31 am

The civil disobedience and protests continue.

Image

As well as
Protesters break into police car park and smash up their cars

Amazing when a bunch of angry kids smashing cars with skateboards are doing more for public safety than actual police officers.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu May 28, 2020 12:46 am

By the way, in case you were wondering what happened to Ramsey Orta, the guy who filmed the police needlessly choking Eric Garner to death, he was harassed by police for years until they planted a gun on him leading to his incarceration.

Here's a snippet of how the prison guards treat people who record evidence:
“Do you want a sandwich?” Deja asks him. The only time she can be certain he’s eating is when she buys his food herself during visits. He agrees to a burger, and she buys three. They are dispensed frozen and I offer to heat them in the microwave, wanting to give Orta and Deja a minute alone.

A correctional officer approaches and tells me the microwave is broken. I see its power cord pulled from the wall and jammed behind a toaster. I plug it in, push a few buttons, and it buzzes to life.

“I told you it’s broken,” the CO says.

I’d crossed an invisible line. The door of the microwave reflects back our distorted image. I can see the CO standing behind me, waiting.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/13/1825 ... ing-safety

The cop who killed Eric Garner did ultimately get fired, five years later, but wasn't criminally convicted. As of last year he was trying to be reinstated as an officer of the law.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by tenchboy » Thu May 28, 2020 7:36 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 12:46 am
By the way, in case you were wondering what happened to Ramsey Orta, the guy who filmed the police needlessly choking Eric Garner to death, he was harassed by police for years until they planted a gun on him leading to his incarceration.

Here's a snippet of how the prison guards treat people who record evidence:
“Do you want a sandwich?” Deja asks him. The only time she can be certain he’s eating is when she buys his food herself during visits. He agrees to a burger, and she buys three. They are dispensed frozen and I offer to heat them in the microwave, wanting to give Orta and Deja a minute alone.

A correctional officer approaches and tells me the microwave is broken. I see its power cord pulled from the wall and jammed behind a toaster. I plug it in, push a few buttons, and it buzzes to life.

“I told you it’s broken,” the CO says.

I’d crossed an invisible line. The door of the microwave reflects back our distorted image. I can see the CO standing behind me, waiting.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/13/1825 ... ing-safety

The cop who killed Eric Garner did ultimately get fired, five years later, but wasn't criminally convicted. As of last year he was trying to be reinstated as an officer of the law.
A quick wiki search to refresh my aged so called memory gave this insight into the workings of the US judiciary...
wiki regarding Ramsey Orta wrote:In 2016 he was sentenced to four years in prison for weapons and drug charges after accepting a plea deal for which the prosecutor agreed to drop charges against his mother

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu May 28, 2020 12:38 pm

Gotta get that slave labour somehow.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Martin Y » Thu May 28, 2020 2:16 pm

It seems like the Minneapolis police may be running low on tear gas. I guess that's an unexpected consequence of socially-distancing protests; you just need so much more gas to hurt everyone.

Still, at least this is happening in America where, when the authorities start tyrannically killing citizens, the citizens can rely on a 2nd amendment right to defend themselves and overthrow the tyranny. That's what that's for, right? May need to check I understood that bit.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by jimbob » Thu May 28, 2020 2:27 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 2:16 pm
It seems like the Minneapolis police may be running low on tear gas. I guess that's an unexpected consequence of socially-distancing protests; you just need so much more gas to hurt everyone.

Still, at least this is happening in America where, when the authorities start tyrannically killing citizens, the citizens can rely on a 2nd amendment right to defend themselves and overthrow the tyranny. That's what that's for, right? May need to check I understood that bit.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by EACLucifer » Fri May 29, 2020 2:51 am

Martin Y wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 2:16 pm
It seems like the Minneapolis police may be running low on tear gas. I guess that's an unexpected consequence of socially-distancing protests; you just need so much more gas to hurt everyone.
Should take a leaf out of the Hong Kong protestors book - leafblower to divert the gas, put a cup over it to contain it, douse with water to deal with the rest.
Still, at least this is happening in America where, when the authorities start tyrannically killing citizens, the citizens can rely on a 2nd amendment right to defend themselves and overthrow the tyranny. That's what that's for, right? May need to check I understood that bit.
The police are generally much more hands off if there is a chance their victims might fight back. This was part of the rationale for the original Black Panthers, and in turn some American gun control seemed more about opposing the Black Panthers than otherwise restricting firearms.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by TopBadger » Fri May 29, 2020 9:00 am

jimbob wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 5:40 pm
Having 12 thousand odd police forces over half with fewer than 10 full time employees is also a problem
The highly localised jurisdiction thing in the US is also odd. There can be Town X police, and Town Y police, where the towns are 3 miles apart, and police from X have no jurisdiction in Y and vice-versa.

I think I only found this out when a US colleague was driving too fast overtaking a cop car (or something similar) and I asked why he wasn't worried about being pulled over. "Ah - they can't do that, they're from the next town".
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by discovolante » Fri May 29, 2020 9:59 am

Well Donald Trump has basically just given the go ahead to open fire so...
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by dyqik » Fri May 29, 2020 10:07 am

TopBadger wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 9:00 am
jimbob wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 5:40 pm
Having 12 thousand odd police forces over half with fewer than 10 full time employees is also a problem
The highly localised jurisdiction thing in the US is also odd. There can be Town X police, and Town Y police, where the towns are 3 miles apart, and police from X have no jurisdiction in Y and vice-versa.

I think I only found this out when a US colleague was driving too fast overtaking a cop car (or something similar) and I asked why he wasn't worried about being pulled over. "Ah - they can't do that, they're from the next town".
At my work, I'm within 2 miles of the jurisdictions of 11 police forces:

6 cities/towns, 3 university police forces, MBTA police, state police.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Martin Y » Fri May 29, 2020 11:28 am

discovolante wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 9:59 am
Well Donald Trump has basically just given the go ahead to open fire so...
That'll calm things down.

In other news, literally other news, one of CNN's two camera crews has been arrested while reporting, live on air. They were polite, completely compliant and offered to move to wherever the police wanted them to go. No reply. A minute or so later they just arrested them.

To add extra de-escalation points, one CNN crew had a white presenter and one a black presenter. Guess who got nicked?

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri May 29, 2020 12:26 pm

Police station on fire.

What's the betting the protestors get convicted and the cops don't?
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by secret squirrel » Fri May 29, 2020 12:35 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:26 pm
Police station on fire.

What's the betting the protestors get convicted and the cops don't?
Convicted or die mysteriously in the near future.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri May 29, 2020 12:47 pm

secret squirrel wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:35 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:26 pm
Police station on fire.

What's the betting the protestors get convicted and the cops don't?
Convicted or die mysteriously in the near future.
True. That happened to a lot of Ferguson protestors IIRC.

I hope they're taking care to conceal their identities.
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