Nordstream: Pipe Down

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Woodchopper
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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:52 pm

IvanV wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:05 pm
Nord Stream 2 is not in operation. So gas is not flowing through it.

I suppose it has some level of gas pressure in it, in the sense that it isn't full of water. It isn't abandoned, there is still some hope of using it. They can probably keep it topped up as necessary. But you wouldn't normally expect much gas leaking from a leak in a non-operational pipeline.

But at the moment, the sanctions on Russia, and operational constraints, mean that it is having to flare off large amounts of excess gas. So it might entertain it to pump more gas than it really needs to down the Nord Stream 2 to escape from the leaks.

The leak is said to be near Bornholm, an island of Denmark. The pipeline does enter Danish water for some distance near Bornholm. It is the only section that leaves international water from leaving Russian water to entering German water. I can imagine the Danes might find themselves felling compelled to pump concrete in to stop the leaks.
Report from yesterday that they were investigating a drop in pressure in the pipeline: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy ... 022-09-26/

Suggests that normally it is pressurised?

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by Grumble » Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:02 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:44 pm
Thread by someone who know their stuff suggests that if it was a Russian attack it could have been carried out by robotic submarines. If so they would have needed a ship nearby.
https://twitter.com/covertshores/status ... s-xF5beEVQ
More or less what I reckon, not that I have any real knowledge
A bit churlish

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by lpm » Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:19 pm

But Nord Stream 2 never even started pumping, I thought.

$11 billion wasted. Capitalism managed to spend a fortune on fossil fuel infrastructure that was nothing but a blackmail device. The Russians have achieved a significant decarbonisation of the European economy by locking Germany and Co. into a race to establish alternatives.

Time for Putin to learn how to spell pyrrhic victory.
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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by IvanV » Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:20 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:52 pm
Report from yesterday that they were investigating a drop in pressure in the pipeline: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy ... 022-09-26/

Suggests that normally it is pressurised?
So my guess would be that they were keeping it at sufficient pressure to ensure no seawater gets in through any tiny leaks, and no corrosion from contact with air. I read that the Langeled pipeline from Norway to England operates at pressures of up to 250 bars. The water pressure at 75m depth is roughly 7.5 bars. So the kind of pressure you'd need to keep it at to ensure no water ingress is perfectly feasible, and well below typical pipeline operating pressures.

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by Gfamily » Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:30 pm

IvanV wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:20 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:52 pm
Report from yesterday that they were investigating a drop in pressure in the pipeline: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy ... 022-09-26/

Suggests that normally it is pressurised?
So my guess would be that they were keeping it at sufficient pressure to ensure no seawater gets in through any tiny leaks, and no corrosion from contact with air. I read that the Langeled pipeline from Norway to England operates at pressures of up to 250 bars. The water pressure at 75m depth is roughly 7.5 bars. So the kind of pressure you'd need to keep it at to ensure no water ingress is perfectly feasible, and well below typical pipeline operating pressures.
The Guardian article from yesterday with the initial report of the pressure loss in Nordstream 2 mentions that it had dropped from 105 to 7 bar overnight.
Which corresponds to your guess
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -overnight
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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:35 pm

Danish media reporting Swedish seismologists stating that an explosion was equivalent to 100 kilos of dynamite and was in the water not underground (as would be expected from a geological event).
https://www.bt.dk/udland/live-kaempe-ga ... eredskabet

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by dyqik » Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:35 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:30 pm
IvanV wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:20 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:52 pm
Report from yesterday that they were investigating a drop in pressure in the pipeline: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy ... 022-09-26/

Suggests that normally it is pressurised?
So my guess would be that they were keeping it at sufficient pressure to ensure no seawater gets in through any tiny leaks, and no corrosion from contact with air. I read that the Langeled pipeline from Norway to England operates at pressures of up to 250 bars. The water pressure at 75m depth is roughly 7.5 bars. So the kind of pressure you'd need to keep it at to ensure no water ingress is perfectly feasible, and well below typical pipeline operating pressures.
The Guardian article from yesterday with the initial report of the pressure loss in Nordstream 2 mentions that it had dropped from 105 to 7 bar overnight.
Which corresponds to your guess
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -overnight
That's an indication that the 105 bar maintenance pressure suddenly dropped to the pipeline ambient pressure as a result of the leaks.

That means that seawater will have gotten into the pipeline.

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by bolo » Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:36 pm

According to Politico:
Nord Stream 2, which is not in operation, was nonetheless filled with 117 million cubic meters of natural gas — worth €213 million at current prices — to bring pipeline pressure up to 300 bar in anticipation of being allowed to flow.
(From an email newsletter, not a webpage, so I can't link. Sorry)

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:18 pm

The Danish Prime Minister has stated that they believe the damage was caused by deliberate actions.

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by Woodchopper » Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:06 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:18 pm
The Danish Prime Minister has stated that they believe the damage was caused by deliberate actions.
And also the Swedish PM.

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by wilsontown » Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:12 pm

dyqik wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:35 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:30 pm
IvanV wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:20 pm

So my guess would be that they were keeping it at sufficient pressure to ensure no seawater gets in through any tiny leaks, and no corrosion from contact with air. I read that the Langeled pipeline from Norway to England operates at pressures of up to 250 bars. The water pressure at 75m depth is roughly 7.5 bars. So the kind of pressure you'd need to keep it at to ensure no water ingress is perfectly feasible, and well below typical pipeline operating pressures.
The Guardian article from yesterday with the initial report of the pressure loss in Nordstream 2 mentions that it had dropped from 105 to 7 bar overnight.
Which corresponds to your guess
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -overnight
That's an indication that the 105 bar maintenance pressure suddenly dropped to the pipeline ambient pressure as a result of the leaks.

That means that seawater will have gotten into the pipeline.
Which presumably means that some part of the pipeline is totally knackered for the foreseeable future.
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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by bolo » Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:36 pm

IvanV wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:05 pm
The leak is said to be near Bornholm, an island of Denmark. The pipeline does enter Danish water for some distance near Bornholm. It is the only section that leaves international water from leaving Russian water to entering German water.
The pipeline does pass through Danish territorial waters at some point, but according to a photo caption in a New York Times article, the NS2 leak is 13 nautical miles southeast of Bornholm, conveniently 1 mile outside the territorial limit.

According to a Danish news site, "All three leaks have occurred in the sea off Bornholm, but in international waters. One leak on the Nord Stream 1 pipeline occurred in what is called the Danish economic zone, while the other occurred in the Swedish economic zone."(English translation via Google Translate)

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by Woodchopper » Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:51 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:44 pm
Thread by someone who know their stuff suggests that if it was a Russian attack it could have been carried out by robotic submarines. If so they would have needed a ship nearby.
https://twitter.com/covertshores/status ... s-xF5beEVQ
Thread in Swedish. Apparently a Russian research ship passed by the area in early September and its transponder was off for a day when it was near the site of the explosions.
https://twitter.com/leifnixon/status/15 ... Bx4D4dyQSw

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by Martin Y » Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:05 am

If the pipeline ever gets fully surveyed, I won't be entitely surprised if there are multiple demolition charges placed ready and waiting by every country with the capability, just in case.

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by Woodchopper » Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:20 am

Gasprom to stop delivering gas to Europe via Ukraine. Seems coordinated: https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1 ... cYeOwt-CBA

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by TimW » Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:35 pm

TASS wrote:Kremlin slams 'stupid' conspiracy theories alleging Russia behind Nord Stream emergencies
Definitely them then.

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by Grumble » Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:44 pm

TimW wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:35 pm
TASS wrote:Kremlin slams 'stupid' conspiracy theories alleging Russia behind Nord Stream emergencies
Definitely them then.
One of those occasions when we can quite clearly show there was a conspiracy, we don’t have evidence that it was Russia.
A bit churlish

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:50 pm

We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by Grumble » Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:14 pm

Intriguing and plausible suggestion that removing Nordstream removes a bargaining chip any Putin usurper might like to have
https://twitter.com/OAlexanderDK/status ... jf1JBvTLpw
A bit churlish

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:15 am

A P-8 Poseidon had a damn good look at the area in the immediate aftermath.

For those unfamiliar with the P-8 Poseidon, it's a 737 loaded with anti-submarine warfare sensors and weapons.

That said, if the attack on the pipeline was done with time bombs, the P-8 would struggle to find anything.

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:33 am

From twitter. Too good not to share.

Image

Spoiler:

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:30 am

I'm tempted the think, assuming this was the Russians, that it would have been to increase panic in the west. It might have been timed around the opening of the Baltic Pipe.

Now would be a very good time to reiterate that Article 5 applies to our pipelines and other pieces of vital infrastructure that we are actually using.

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by jimbob » Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:07 am

TimW wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:35 pm
TASS wrote:Kremlin slams 'stupid' conspiracy theories alleging Russia behind Nord Stream emergencies
Definitely them then.
Thread on the immediate response to the leaks

https://twitter.com/NovelSci/status/157 ... UsiPwZ2tZA
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Whatever happened, we *will* know. While we wait-- let's talk about the late Boris Nemtsov. Minutes after he was murdered, accounts online began to deny or push incoherent stories about his death. With no reporting, these accounts had a lot of theories. https://openfacto.fr/2022/01/27/the-gru ... -websites/
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It was high volume, incoherent, and without a doubt coordinated. While I am not prepared to make any concrete assertions about activity we've seen yesterday and today what I can tell you is that the Hoaxlines trending headline tracker surfaced some interesting content.
It has the hallmarks of Russia
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by jimbob » Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:21 am

Lots of people have made the point that Gazprom could claim Force Majeure to avoid contractual penalties for not supplying the gas.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Nordstream: Pipe Down

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:06 pm

The 700-meter wide pool of bubbling water in the Baltic Sea caused by the rupture of the Nord Stream gas pipelines points to a climate disaster.

It’s the most visible of three major gas leaks emanating from the pipelines connecting Russia to Europe. Germany estimated that about 300,000 metric tons of methane, one of the most powerful greenhouse gases, entered the atmosphere as a result of the releases. That amount of the gas would have roughly the same climate impact over a 20-year period as the annual emissions from about 5.48 million US cars.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... e-disaster

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