CO19 Dilemmas

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Cardinal Fang
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Cardinal Fang » Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:20 am

secret squirrel wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:50 pm
My in-laws sent us multiple boxes of surgical masks and hand gel without warning for some reason, and now we have to figure out the best way to distribute them for the benefit of society so we're not the worst kind of people.
Offer them to your local Mutual Aid group for distribution?

CF
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Martin Y
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Martin Y » Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:40 am

I just saw on the BBC news site some rather mixed advice from the BVA recommending cats be kept indoors. (<groan> We don't even have a litter tray because our two have fields for that.) And then clarifying that they meant only if someone in the house has symptoms and then clarifying further that maybe it's sensible to do it anyway if it's "safe" and "possible" and don't worry and there are no cases of anyone catching CO19 from a pet.

So that's nice and clear.

And my dilemma is do I mention it to Mrs Y? She already wonders about the cats since she read about the coughing tiger in the Bronx zoo (get well soon, tiggers, even though you'd cheerfully bite my face off).

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Hunting Dog » Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:00 pm

I was wondering about cats too. We only have one cat, who absolutely hates all humans except for us, she will run and hide if anyone else (including neighbours) come near the house - she rarely seems to go further than the back garden (she certainly craps in our garden) - so I'm fairly confident no-one else is going to be stroking her for the transfer on fur issue. She's also a complete PITA to try and keep in, when we previously tried to keep her in at night we had to barricade the cat-flap (with a board and a large box full of bricks) and you still hear her hurling herself at the barricade... solely locking the cat flap resulted in hole-in-door and no cat flap when she had a panic attack about someone ringing the doorbell :(

so I'm very reluctant to try and keep her in unless it becomes an official government command!

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Fishnut
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Fishnut » Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:59 pm

DEFRA's official advice for cat owners is to just wash your hands after touching them. The BVA's advice goes further and says that if you've got coronavirus you should try and keep your cat inside (you have to scroll down past all the vet-specific stuff to the section "Coronavirus and animals" to find that advice).

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Iron Magpie
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Iron Magpie » Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:41 pm

Hunting Dog wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:00 pm
I was wondering about cats too. We only have one cat, who absolutely hates all humans except for us, she will run and hide if anyone else (including neighbours) come near the house - she rarely seems to go further than the back garden (she certainly craps in our garden) - so I'm fairly confident no-one else is going to be stroking her for the transfer on fur issue. She's also a complete PITA to try and keep in, when we previously tried to keep her in at night we had to barricade the cat-flap (with a board and a large box full of bricks) and you still hear her hurling herself at the barricade... solely locking the cat flap resulted in hole-in-door and no cat flap when she had a panic attack about someone ringing the doorbell :(

so I'm very reluctant to try and keep her in unless it becomes an official government command!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I have one particular cat that we tried to keep in by locking the cat flap. The cat worked out how to unlock it and was gone. This cat is a very smart cat and worked out how to open the fridge and has left us with no xmas turkey on two occasions. I don't know why we keep the damned furry little monsters.....*





I do really....because I am a huge mad cat man. They rule my house.

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Hunting Dog » Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:58 pm

Iron Magpie wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:41 pm
I have one particular cat that we tried to keep in by locking the cat flap. The cat worked out how to unlock it and was gone. This cat is a very smart cat and worked out how to open the fridge and has left us with no xmas turkey on two occasions. I don't know why we keep the damned furry little monsters.....*
Lol, yes, when we also used to have an older cat too (who needed to be kept in because of frailty issues) we just 'locked' the flap to one way - in only - the old cat couldn't figure it out, but the clever bastard cat could always get herself out by hooking the flap inwards towards her. She'd also managed to overcome our first lighter attempts at total barricades by launching herself off nearby kitchen counters to get up over and behind the propped board blocking the flap, and sliding down, and hence pushing the whole contraption away from the flap (she's tended to be quite heavyweight, partly due to nicking all of the ex older cat's food)

We have friends with oriental cats that had to install child locks on their fridges...

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Gfamily » Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:19 pm

In terms of what is 'essential basics' shopping, we have an Aldi about 250 metres away, and we do the majority of our shipping there.
However, we can't get fairtrade 'basic' teabags at the Aldi. For those, we have a Co-op about 1.5km away.
Does fairtrade count as essential? Probably not, but it is the principal determinant for our tea/coffee purchases, but travelling 6 times the distance to get them is going against what's being asked of us.
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Hunting Dog » Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:35 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:19 pm
In terms of what is 'essential basics' shopping, we have an Aldi about 250 metres away, and we do the majority of our shipping there.
However, we can't get fairtrade 'basic' teabags at the Aldi. For those, we have a Co-op about 1.5km away.
Does fairtrade count as essential? Probably not, but it is the principal determinant for our tea/coffee purchases, but travelling 6 times the distance to get them is going against what's being asked of us.
We're getting similar issues - our local Tesco is sort-of next door (20m from back gate) which is very lovely! And doesn't have queues at 6:30 in the morning, which is even more lovely! But doesn't (and never has) stocked a few odd items that I'm starting to miss; toothpicks (cocktail sticks), Deep Heat (for various dodgy joints), hair conditioner (of any sort that doesn't make me look like I've got fuzzy dreadlocks), dried split peas, various types/flavours of food/sauces etc. Plus also as a 'local' its a lot more expensive than the main store in next town.

People further from a 'local' would probably just be travelling to the larger stores anyway, but I feel bad about doing it (and haven't yet)

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Hunting Dog » Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:20 pm


secret squirrel
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by secret squirrel » Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:09 am

Cardinal Fang wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:20 am
secret squirrel wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:50 pm
My in-laws sent us multiple boxes of surgical masks and hand gel without warning for some reason, and now we have to figure out the best way to distribute them for the benefit of society so we're not the worst kind of people.
Offer them to your local Mutual Aid group for distribution?

CF
This is also a good idea, but I'm not UK based and I don't know of any Mutual Aid groups near me.

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Millennie Al » Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:51 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:38 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:01 am
It's not just a matter of banning things that people enjoy as "non-essential", though that seems a common impulse.
I agree with most of this, up to the last sentence. If you think I'm proposing banning things because people (myself included) enjoy them you're dead wrong. It's about risks versus necessity.

Staple foods like vegetables, bread, dairy and meat are very obviously as close to essential as possible, and should continue to be produced safely.
That is complete nonsense. There are large numbers of vegetarians who prove that meat is not essential at all. Similarly, vegans show dairy is unnecessary. Many people eat little or no bread (e.g. eating rice instead), so that's not essential either. Even vegetables are not essential in the short term - for example, scurvy takes at least a month of very low vitamin C intake to appear.
The same argument cannot be made for lager, or fancy pastries, or crisps. Stopping production of those things, at least where it can't be done safely, really wouldn't be the end of the world.

The increased marginal risk from continuing to stock/purchase those items when they're already in the supply chain is minimal and not worth worrying about. Running a separate facility to produce it, perhaps not so much.
The risks need to be objectively assessed and depend on the number and type of workers required and the ways they can be exposed. Things like fruit and vegetables can be very labour intensive - UK farmers fear huge labour shortfall despite interest in 'land army' . In contrast, for example, beer can be brewed in large quantities and bottled in automated bottling plants with few people involved. It is also much easier to protect a few workers than very many, especially very many doing strenuous manual labour.
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Millennie Al » Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:56 am

secret squirrel wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:50 pm
My in-laws sent us multiple boxes of surgical masks and hand gel without warning for some reason, and now we have to figure out the best way to distribute them for the benefit of society so we're not the worst kind of people.
Check your local dentists - it's a group who are at extreme risk due to the nature of the work. Though surgcal masks are not sufficient by themselves.
Covid-19 - Don't catch it: don't spread it.

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Cardinal Fang » Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:00 pm

Anyone know if microwaving kills Coronavirus?

Parent was asking me today. Wanted to know if nuking their Chinese takeaway* would do it.

Couldn't anwer. Suggested that if it was properly cooked it would be okay, and to wipe down the outside of the container with soap and water would be sufficent. Sound correct?

CF

(*For reference before any "they're a racist comment". Parent has a transplant and is at very high risk as a result. Being very strict with social distancing. Things like food that come into the house get wiped with soap and water if possible, and left on the side for 24 hours if can't (e.g. fruit and veg). Parent very fond of Mongolian lamb from local takeaway and is getting cravings, as hasn't had for weeks. Would similarly as question if takeaway was pizza or something else. Question because at high risk, not because of origin of takeaway).
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Nero » Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:20 pm

Cardinal Fang wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:00 pm
Anyone know if microwaving kills Coronavirus?

Parent was asking me today. Wanted to know if nuking their Chinese takeaway* would do it.

Couldn't anwer. Suggested that if it was properly cooked it would be okay, and to wipe down the outside of the container with soap and water would be sufficent. Sound correct?

CF

(*For reference before any "they're a racist comment". Parent has a transplant and is at very high risk as a result. Being very strict with social distancing. Things like food that come into the house get wiped with soap and water if possible, and left on the side for 24 hours if can't (e.g. fruit and veg). Parent very fond of Mongolian lamb from local takeaway and is getting cravings, as hasn't had for weeks. Would similarly as question if takeaway was pizza or something else. Question because at high risk, not because of origin of takeaway).
Not much time to post, but have a listen/read to this. Both podcast and transcript are available.

https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-v ... -disinfect

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Herainestold » Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:27 pm

Cardinal Fang wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:00 pm
Anyone know if microwaving kills Coronavirus?

Parent was asking me today. Wanted to know if nuking their Chinese takeaway* would do it.

Couldn't anwer. Suggested that if it was properly cooked it would be okay, and to wipe down the outside of the container with soap and water would be sufficent. Sound correct?

CF

(*For reference before any "they're a racist comment". Parent has a transplant and is at very high risk as a result. Being very strict with social distancing. Things like food that come into the house get wiped with soap and water if possible, and left on the side for 24 hours if can't (e.g. fruit and veg). Parent very fond of Mongolian lamb from local takeaway and is getting cravings, as hasn't had for weeks. Would similarly as question if takeaway was pizza or something else. Question because at high risk, not because of origin of takeaway).
Heat will kill it, so microwaving to a certain temperature should be sufficient. Unfortunately a quick google reveals no concensus on what temperature, I have seen a range from 56C to 180C.This article says 70C, which should be acheivable by microwaving, but i dont know weather to believe it.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddrink/ ... r-BB11EE9X

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Hunting Dog » Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:32 pm

Bottom section of this BBC article has some comments about takeaways and microwaving.
The risk of packaging contamination can be minimised, Prof Bloomfield advises, by "emptying the contents [into a clean dish], disposing of the packaging into a refuse bag and washing your hands thoroughly before you eat".

"Take food out of a container with a spoon and eat it with a knife and fork - not your fingers."

It might be better in the current circumstances to order hot, freshly cooked food, rather than cold or raw items. The Food Standards Agency does stress that the risk from food is low and that "there is no reason to avoid having ready-to-eat food delivered if it has been prepared and handled properly".

For the most cautious and the most vulnerable though, careful preparation and cooking may be reassuring. "With a pizza for example, if you wanted to be really safe, you could even pop it into the microwave for a couple of minutes," Prof Bloomfield adds.
but that's all a bit vague looking with no references...

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Millennie Al » Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:32 am

Cardinal Fang wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:00 pm
Anyone know if microwaving kills Coronavirus?

Parent was asking me today. Wanted to know if nuking their Chinese takeaway* would do it.

Couldn't anwer. Suggested that if it was properly cooked it would be okay, and to wipe down the outside of the container with soap and water would be sufficent. Sound correct?
I think you're asking the wrong question. I expect that the best way to make food safe is to put it in a conventional oven for a short time. A conventional oven heats only the outside of an object, which must them be cooked slowly by conducted heat. But if we assum that your takeaway has been correctly cooked, then the inside is already sterile from cooking and we only need to worry about its surface having cooled enough to allow the virus to survive and also getting contaminated. This is a situation where heating the outside briefly can re-sterilise the food. For something like a pizza, which is solid, this is very easy. Similarly for a Chinese takeaway in a foil tray which can be put in the oven as is. For something which arrives in a plastic container, you'll have to transfer it to an oven-safe dish and then may need to heat it long enough to ensure it is hot all the way through as some of the surface will have got covered during the transfer.
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Cardinal Fang » Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:07 pm

I knew the hive mind would come up with answers.

Cheers
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Martin Y » Thu May 07, 2020 1:07 pm

Millennie Al wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:32 am
... This is a situation where heating the outside briefly can re-sterilise the food. For something like a pizza, which is solid, this is very easy. Similarly for a Chinese takeaway in a foil tray which can be put in the oven as is. For something which arrives in a plastic container, you'll have to transfer it to an oven-safe dish and then may need to heat it long enough to ensure it is hot all the way through as some of the surface will have got covered during the transfer.
We had our first lockdown takeaway. Not from our usual curry place as that seems to be closed. But thanks to this thread we had the oven all ready for the foil trays.

Aside from roti and poppadoms in paper bags, everything came in plastic tubs. Including some starter snacks in "cardboard" cartons which proved to be plastic-lined and smelled kinda funny after their trip through the sterilising oven. Oh, well. Still jolly tasty.

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Martin Y » Sun May 17, 2020 11:13 pm

A genuine dilemma over what's permitted: Can I drive a 400 mile round trip to Nottingham to take 2 people and their luggage to Salford and then home, so they can move house?

Son and partner are locked down at her student flat in Nottingham. She needs to vacate soon.
He needs to get back to his flat in Salford (current flatmates are moving out and they can't leave the property empty for more than x days.)

They intend to both relocate to Salford. Her parents are bringing a van to take most of her stuff away from Nottingham, but that leaves them and a bit more stuff than 2 people want to carry by train (even if you want to get on trains) to get to Salford.

They could hire a car but I don't know if that would be less exposure risk or actually more.

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Gfamily » Sun May 17, 2020 11:26 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 11:13 pm
A genuine dilemma over what's permitted: Can I drive a 400 mile round trip to Nottingham to take 2 people and their luggage to Salford and then home, so they can move house?

Son and partner are locked down at her student flat in Nottingham. She needs to vacate soon.
He needs to get back to his flat in Salford (current flatmates are moving out and they can't leave the property empty for more than x days.)

They intend to both relocate to Salford. Her parents are bringing a van to take most of her stuff away from Nottingham, but that leaves them and a bit more stuff than 2 people want to carry by train (even if you want to get on trains) to get to Salford.

They could hire a car but I don't know if that would be less exposure risk or actually more.
I'd have thought that them hiring a car would be the approach that most complies with the regulations, and it minimises the amount of travel being done.

I'd expect good car hire places would wipe down the surfaces most likely to be touched by hirers.
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon May 18, 2020 2:13 pm

On the other hand, van drivers are still working, as are taxi services and uber and so on. So as far as the UK gov (perhaps fairer to specify the English one) is concerned, you can do it as long as you charge money. Ask them for a quid and you're covered, as the gig economy is immune from minimum wage legislation.

Obviously that's a nonsense in terms of actual risk. If you think you can do it without risking infecting them or yourself then I don't see any issue. Beyond that it's about weighing up the relative risks of their other options.

There's no increased risk from the original van going all the way to Salford, but I assume that's been ruled out for reasons.
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by tom p » Mon May 18, 2020 3:49 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 11:13 pm
A genuine dilemma over what's permitted: Can I drive a 400 mile round trip to Nottingham to take 2 people and their luggage to Salford and then home, so they can move house?

Son and partner are locked down at her student flat in Nottingham. She needs to vacate soon.
He needs to get back to his flat in Salford (current flatmates are moving out and they can't leave the property empty for more than x days.)

They intend to both relocate to Salford. Her parents are bringing a van to take most of her stuff away from Nottingham, but that leaves them and a bit more stuff than 2 people want to carry by train (even if you want to get on trains) to get to Salford.

They could hire a car but I don't know if that would be less exposure risk or actually more.
Since you will be preventing them from ending up homeless, it's an essential journey.
You will be in your car anyway, so the risk is negligible, indeed you driving them is surely a lower risk of infections being spread than if they use public transport or hire a car, which will have been handled by the valeting team & they would have to interact with the front of house person too

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Martin Y
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Martin Y » Mon May 18, 2020 5:21 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 2:13 pm
Ask them for a quid and you're covered, as the gig economy is immune from minimum wage legislation.
I'll ask them to pay for the petrol. That should be about a quid.

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