lpm wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:27 pm
You keep repeating this one. What on earth country is proposing this?
It's happening in the US and I think our current government are mendacious enough to start with 'it's just nightclubs' then expand the use over time. Once it exists, individual workplaces will also try it on (particularly certain US corporations)
It's not happening in the US. I don't think you understand how US government works.
It's happened in the US offices of several large corporations including the one I work for and the Biden administration is attempting to mandate it federally against the resistance of various state governors.
eta: the senior management of many of these companies funded campaigns to prevent voter ID requirements on the grounds that they discriminate on ethnic lines, but they seem completely unconcerned that they're now imposing a much more frequent requirement to check vaccine status on ethnic groups which are disproportionately unvaccinated.
Last edited by sheldrake on Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's happening in the US and I think our current government are mendacious enough to start with 'it's just nightclubs' then expand the use over time. Once it exists, individual workplaces will also try it on (particularly certain US corporations)
It's not happening in the US. I don't think you understand how US government works.
It's happened in the US offices of several large corporations including the one I work for and the Biden administration is attempting to mandate it federally against the resistance of various state governors.
This is largely false.
You do understand that health and safety rules aren't new?
lpm wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:39 pm
It's not happening in the US. I don't think you understand how US government works.
It's happened in the US offices of several large corporations including the one I work for and the Biden administration is attempting to mandate it federally against the resistance of various state governors.
This is largely false.
You do understand that health and safety rules aren't new?
This is true https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/15/busines ... suits.html This is particularly true at the company I work for. Health and safety rules have not previously required you to disclose vaccination status to your employer and be refused entry to your place of work if you aren't vaccinated. This will impact some ethnic groups disproportionately and is, in my view, very disproportionate to the actual level of risk.
It's happened in the US offices of several large corporations including the one I work for and the Biden administration is attempting to mandate it federally against the resistance of various state governors.
This is largely false.
You do understand that health and safety rules aren't new?
This is true https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/15/busines ... suits.html This is particularly true at the company I work for. Health and safety rules have not previously required you to disclose vaccination status to your employer and be refused entry to your place of work if you aren't vaccinated. This will impact some ethnic groups disproportionately and is, in my view, very disproportionate to the actual level of risk.
That's because US schools and colleges require vaccination, and so it's assumed that employees are largely vaccinated against established diseases, and so it isn't a health and safety issue. A new disease changes the health and safety situation.
If you have the right to live and work in the US, you were either likely to have been vaccinated against most diseases as a child, as a requirement of school attendance, or you had to demonstrate your vaccination status to USCIS in order to get a Greencard and hence citizenship.
This isn't a new onerous requirement in the general sense. The only difference is that it's the employer having to do the checking.
Last edited by dyqik on Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dyqik wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:07 pm
This is largely false.
You do understand that health and safety rules aren't new?
This is true https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/15/busines ... suits.html This is particularly true at the company I work for. Health and safety rules have not previously required you to disclose vaccination status to your employer and be refused entry to your place of work if you aren't vaccinated. This will impact some ethnic groups disproportionately and is, in my view, very disproportionate to the actual level of risk.
That's because US schools and colleges require vaccination, and so it's assumed that employees are largely vaccinated against established diseases, and do it isn't a health and safety issue. A new disease changes the health and safety situation.
Does it warrant this kind of pressure and discrimination though? I'd submit not. Most of us wouldn't tolerate this degree of intrusion to half the risk of heart disease, even though it would save far more lives.
This is true https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/15/busines ... suits.html This is particularly true at the company I work for. Health and safety rules have not previously required you to disclose vaccination status to your employer and be refused entry to your place of work if you aren't vaccinated. This will impact some ethnic groups disproportionately and is, in my view, very disproportionate to the actual level of risk.
That's because US schools and colleges require vaccination, and so it's assumed that employees are largely vaccinated against established diseases, and do it isn't a health and safety issue. A new disease changes the health and safety situation.
Does it warrant this kind of pressure and discrimination though? I'd submit not. Most of us wouldn't tolerate this degree of intrusion to half the risk of heart disease, even though it would save far more lives.
Yes, it absolutely does warrant it. OSHA has stricter requirements on lower workplace risks.
Oh, and employers having to collect medical information for health and safety isn't a new thing. I have to have medicals every few years for work, carried out by their doctor.
I had to have the same in the UK, even for a summer internship.
The only difference here is that far more people are subject to it than before, because everyone working around other people is at risk from CoVID, rather than it being a specific job related risk.
Austria is going to do the same thing as of the 1st of November.
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
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dyqik wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:13 pm
Oh, and employers having to collect medical information for health and safety isn't a new thing. I have to have medicals every few years for work, carried out by their doctor.
I had to have the same in the UK, even for a summer internship.
The only difference here is that far more people are subject to it than before, because everyone working around other people is at risk from CoVID, rather than it being a specific job related risk.
It's not just health and safety either. CoVID risks are also an accessibility issue. Not tracking vaccination status or testing is essentially preventing the immunocompromised from accessing the workplace, which is going to give employers serious issues with the Disability Discrimination Act.
dyqik wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:39 pm
Not tracking vaccination status or testing is essentially preventing the immunocompromised from accessing the workplace, which is going to give employers serious issues with the Disability Discrimination Act.
That was also true for flu.
eta: Israeli data suggests that vaccines have done a great job at reducing severity of infection (reduced hospitalisation rates in the vaccinated), but not such a superb job on actual infection and transmission. As far as I can tell enormous effort is being invested in stopping people from seeing this as 'personal choice' (which is what it would be if vaccines were seen as protection for self rather than others)
dyqik wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:39 pm
Not tracking vaccination status or testing is essentially preventing the immunocompromised from accessing the workplace, which is going to give employers serious issues with the Disability Discrimination Act.
That was also true for flu.
Some risks are larger than others - flu is usually less widespread, possibly less transmissible than delta at least, and somewhat less dangerous if you do get it. And just because CoVID has brought this point forward, it doesn't mean it shouldn't have been done for flu as well.
Also, my employer gives me a flu shot every year, and it's fairly common for people here to get them (they're free with insurance, and freely available).
Flu is certainly less transmissible and most years' strains are less dangerous than Covid (last strain that may have higher mortality seems like 1951).
How dangerous should something be before triggering these kinds of intervention? This is clearly a value judgement rather than something I can assert is correct with numbers, but presumably you make comparisons to other risks to decide what you'll support as proportionate, Dyqik ?
sheldrake wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:00 pm
Flu is certainly less transmissible and most years' strains are less dangerous than Covid (last strain that may have higher mortality seems like 1951).
How dangerous should something be before triggering these kinds of intervention? This is clearly a value judgement rather than something I can assert is correct with numbers, but presumably you make comparisons to other risks to decide what you'll support as proportionate, Dyqik ?
I don't see the point, since you'll just be abusive in response to any particular number.
In any case, the risk to employers is based on case law and legal decisions, not numerical risk.
sheldrake wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:17 pm
Are there cases of employers being sued because they allowed staff into work who had not been vaccinated against Flu ?
I bet someone has at least tried to after their gran caught flu in a hospital and died.
Also, that would be illegal for healthcare workers in some states (generally with exemptions for medical/religious reasons), so the state might give a hospital a fine for allowing it.
sheldrake wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:17 pm
Are there cases of employers being sued because they allowed staff into work who had not been vaccinated against Flu ?
I bet someone has at least tried to after their gran caught flu in a hospital and died.
Also, that would be illegal for healthcare workers in some states (generally with exemptions for medical/religious reasons), so the state might give a hospital a fine for allowing it.
Are their concrete examples of either of these things happening?
Monkey and sheldrake: There are cases in Norway where old people have been infected by unvaccinated healtworkers resulting in their death, isolated and alone. Tragic.
Reportage covering one particular case in Norwegian that ought to pass machine translation in understandable form: https://www.nrk.no/norge/pappa-koronasm ... 1.15696385
Bosses of the fatally infection spreading healtworkers firmly claim to have followed the rules in force so see themselves guiltfree while regretting deaths caused by unvaccinated workers.
sheldrake wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:24 pm
Are their concrete examples of either of these things happening?
Well there's certainly a current case of legal action being mooted against someone who claimed that the acute risks associated with COVID are not that great - specifically that it's just a "little flu" that has to be faced “realistically" since "that's life...we're all going to die someday."
sheldrake wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:17 pm
Are there cases of employers being sued because they allowed staff into work who had not been vaccinated against Flu ?
I bet someone has at least tried to after their gran caught flu in a hospital and died.
Also, that would be illegal for healthcare workers in some states (generally with exemptions for medical/religious reasons), so the state might give a hospital a fine for allowing it.
Are their concrete examples of either of these things happening?
Dunno, might be.
The laws have definitely been tested by staff who refused to get vaccinated. As has compulsory vaccination imposed by hospitals and whatnot without a law. Think the only success for the antivaxxers was when there wasn't a religious exemption.
bmforre wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:25 am
Monkey and sheldrake: There are cases in Norway where old people have been infected by unvaccinated healtworkers resulting in their death, isolated and alone. Tragic.
Reportage covering one particular case in Norwegian that ought to pass machine translation in understandable form: https://www.nrk.no/norge/pappa-koronasm ... 1.15696385
Bosses of the fatally infection spreading healtworkers firmly claim to have followed the rules in force so see themselves guiltfree while regretting deaths caused by unvaccinated workers.
Relatives have not gone to court yet AFAIK.
Yes, this is why many healthcare providers will make sure their workers a vaccinated for all sorts, even when the law does not require them to, and it is not illegal for them to do so. It saves lives.
bmforre wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:25 am
Monkey and sheldrake: There are cases in Norway where old people have been infected by unvaccinated healtworkers resulting in their death, isolated and alone. Tragic.
Reportage covering one particular case in Norwegian that ought to pass machine translation in understandable form: https://www.nrk.no/norge/pappa-koronasm ... 1.15696385
Bosses of the fatally infection spreading healtworkers firmly claim to have followed the rules in force so see themselves guiltfree while regretting deaths caused by unvaccinated workers.
Relatives have not gone to court yet AFAIK.
Yes, this is why many healthcare providers will make sure their workers a vaccinated for all sorts, even when the law does not require them to, and it is not illegal for them to do so. It saves lives.
A reasonable comparison would be civil engineering companies giving regular compulsory drug tests to their employees. I know of one company in the UK for certain where this happens, or at least did a small number of years ago and probably still does, and given that one does, I wouldn't be surprised if it's fairly standard practice. It saves lives if the people building bridges, tunnels and nuclear waste storage facilities, for example, are not impaired by drugs.
A reasonable comparison would be civil engineering companies giving regular compulsory drug tests to their employees. I know of one company in the UK for certain where this happens, or at least did a small number of years ago and probably still does, and given that one does, I wouldn't be surprised if it's fairly standard practice. It saves lives if the people building bridges, tunnels and nuclear waste storage facilities, for example, are not impaired by drugs.
