Why do you get to decide that these are "largely irrelevent"? Just because there is no relevance to your life?
Incarcerated women don't think it is irrelevant. Women in sport don't think it is irrelevant.
Why do you get to decide that these are "largely irrelevent"? Just because there is no relevance to your life?
He didn't call them men.Bewildered wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 1:50 pmAnd in the case of the actual OP it’s really not hard to see why calling a group of people who see their gender as female “men”, without qualification that you mean their biological gender, would be a very upsetting and unpleasant thing to do.
Right it was “males”. I don’t see any significant difference though.Tristan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 2:24 pmHe didn't call them men.Bewildered wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 1:50 pmAnd in the case of the actual OP it’s really not hard to see why calling a group of people who see their gender as female “men”, without qualification that you mean their biological gender, would be a very upsetting and unpleasant thing to do.
You raise a good point. Exactly what advantage could being born male confer on a chess player?
There are many advantages to being born male for chess.
Yes that sums it up, males have many different kinds of advantages over females in our society, beyond just muscle and bone.
Obviously you're not a bigot for acknowledging that your brother is male after his transition, which implies that he wasn't before. But also obviously, there are forms of words which are considered bigoted which refer to the same thing (e.g. the OP and subsequent discussion.)warumich wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 3:16 pm... shiny new MALE birth certificate that the court recognised as valid after his transition...
... is being a little bit more considerate with the language we use, knowing that it would make a difference to the quality of life of a relatively large group of already suffering people, really so objectionable?
Do you imagine a trans woman would fit in with these boys and men then?
Well, with some compassion, for a start. Rather than as sub-humans, perverts and molesters which is what most transphobes like Webb think of trans people as.shpalman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 4:00 pmObviously you're not a bigot for acknowledging that your brother is male after his transition, which implies that he wasn't before. But also obviously, there are forms of words which are considered bigoted which refer to the same thing (e.g. the OP and subsequent discussion.)warumich wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 3:16 pm... shiny new MALE birth certificate that the court recognised as valid after his transition...
... is being a little bit more considerate with the language we use, knowing that it would make a difference to the quality of life of a relatively large group of already suffering people, really so objectionable?
Or am I not even allowed at all to say that he wasn't male before, and then after the transition, he is? In which case, how are we supposed to talk about this situation?
Disclaimer: I don't know or care anything about Justin Webb.
I think the implication is that they frequent their local chess club as a boy and then as a man but then cynically transition to compete against women who have been disadvantaged in the local chess club, or something, and thereby gain an advantage.
You realize, I hope, that I wasn't going to refer to warumich's brother as any of those things?El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 4:05 pmWell, with some compassion, for a start. Rather than as sub-humans, perverts and molesters which is what most transphobes like Webb think of trans people as.shpalman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 4:00 pmObviously you're not a bigot for acknowledging that your brother is male after his transition, which implies that he wasn't before. But also obviously, there are forms of words which are considered bigoted which refer to the same thing (e.g. the OP and subsequent discussion.)warumich wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 3:16 pm... shiny new MALE birth certificate that the court recognised as valid after his transition...
... is being a little bit more considerate with the language we use, knowing that it would make a difference to the quality of life of a relatively large group of already suffering people, really so objectionable?
Or am I not even allowed at all to say that he wasn't male before, and then after the transition, he is? In which case, how are we supposed to talk about this situation?
Disclaimer: I don't know or care anything about Justin Webb.
No, of course, I didn't intend to imply that you were, apologies if I gave that impression. It's just that the missing element from how transphobes talk about trans people is compassion and realising them to be human. Instead, the language from them is in line with what Terry Pratchett described as "treating people as things". And we've historically seen exactly the same thing for women, ethnic minorities and gay people.
shpalman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 4:00 pmObviously you're not a bigot for acknowledging that your brother is male after his transition, which implies that he wasn't before. But also obviously, there are forms of words which are considered bigoted which refer to the same thing (e.g. the OP and subsequent discussion.)warumich wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 3:16 pm... shiny new MALE birth certificate that the court recognised as valid after his transition...
... is being a little bit more considerate with the language we use, knowing that it would make a difference to the quality of life of a relatively large group of already suffering people, really so objectionable?
Or am I not even allowed at all to say that he wasn't male before, and then after the transition, he is? In which case, how are we supposed to talk about this situation?
Disclaimer: I don't know or care anything about Justin Webb.
Webb has never expressed any such thing. You are just inventing libellous views on your own head.El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 4:05 pmWell, with some compassion, for a start. Rather than as sub-humans, perverts and molesters which is what most transphobes like Webb think of trans people as.
I'd imagine that a group of men who are unwelcoming to women are not very likely to be welcoming to a trans woman, regardless of how late they transitioned.
It obviously is a little bit difficult, because I'm asking you directly how to refer to your brother's situation, and you still haven't told me.warumich wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 4:23 pmshpalman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 4:00 pmObviously you're not a bigot for acknowledging that your brother is male after his transition, which implies that he wasn't before. But also obviously, there are forms of words which are considered bigoted which refer to the same thing (e.g. the OP and subsequent discussion.)warumich wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 3:16 pm... shiny new MALE birth certificate that the court recognised as valid after his transition...
... is being a little bit more considerate with the language we use, knowing that it would make a difference to the quality of life of a relatively large group of already suffering people, really so objectionable?
Or am I not even allowed at all to say that he wasn't male before, and then after the transition, he is? In which case, how are we supposed to talk about this situation?
Disclaimer: I don't know or care anything about Justin Webb.
The language that is considered ok I agree is often arbitrary, that goes with any pejorative term though, the N word, the P word, whatever. I don't know any transperson who would get angry if someone else uses the wrong phrase out of genuine ignorance (I'm sure there are though, any community has their share of a..eholes). However, like the N word, this has been discussed so often and so publicly, you'd expect most people who have not been living under a rock, and in particular people with high profile public roles like an archbishop, to know what words to avoid. And even then, if they didn't know, and they genuinely apologise after it's been pointed out, that would be the end of it (again, apart from a minority of a..eholes probably). It really isn't that difficult
Women that I have discussed this with in real life don't think it's important. Including girls in US high school sports, which is probably the area where transphobes are yelling loudest about this.