General Election '24

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IvanV
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Re: General Election '24

Post by IvanV »

lpm wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 5:07 pm I don't think it is possible to forecast. Inherently.
Especially concerning the future. I try to avoid forecasting, as I dislike being wrong.

And we shall certainly be wrong where the situation is infested with radical uncertainty.* It is the kind of uncertainty that you cannot remove by acquiring more knowledge. And there is plenty of it. Such as in the present election.

*Although it says there that the term was coined by Kay and King in 2020, King uses it a lot in his 2016 book The End of Alchemy, which I have just consulted to check that is true. I don't think it was new then, either.
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Re: General Election '24

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Woodchopper wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 6:25 pm
El Pollo Diablo wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 2:11 pm
IvanV wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 1:40 pm Meanwhile, The Economist's model is still predicting 187 for the Tories. Slightly better than the 165 of 1997.

Once we would have considered that a wipe-out. I wonder if we shall be disappointed if it turns out nearer that, than these total wipe-out forecasts others are making.
Yeah, that seems daft to me. The Tories are now polling a full ten points below where they were in 1997. I don't believe their model, sorry.
There is still a lot of uncertainty.

For example the new IPSOS MRP predicts 453 seats for Labour and 115 Conservative. But:
The model finds 117 seats, the majority of which were won by the Tories in 2019, are now considered “too close to call” as they have a winning margin of less than five percentage points. They include 56 where the Tories are marginally ahead and 48 where Labour is slightly in the lead.

It underlines the extent to which a relatively small number of undecided voters or switchers to smaller parties, or Labour, could alter the outcome for the Tories. With millions of voters still undecided, the party will be hoping to claw back some support by polling day.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ar ... l-election

Change the assumptions in the model just a little and there might be a large effect upon a prediction.
Yes, the seat forecasts assume that previous behavior linking national voting percentages in polls to election results, and thence to seat results remains a reasonably good predictor of future behavior. But under such a big shift as we are seeing, nonlinearities in voters responses and behaviors can really break the models.

My view is that there are feedbacks between polls and expectations and actual voter behaviors that are hard to account for in these models. A few in particular that can lead to a collapse in a party's results are things like: party door knockers lose hope and don't campaign; candidate quality drops; more and more natural party voters talk each other into either not voting or switching, as it becomes acceptable in their social circles to express anger with that party; voters want to vote for the winning team, and so switch; etc..

Against those there are things like the shy Tory effect. But I'm not sure that that can survive the above widespread anger at the Tories over things like sewage and wasting money on crony contracts.
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Re: General Election '24

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I also think there's a difference between disappointment in a party and anger at a party. Being out of the country, I have no idea how accurate my impression is the UK mood is, but I get the feeling that in 1997 there was disappointment in the Tory party sleaze etc., but this time there's genuine anger at them.
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Re: General Election '24

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dyqik wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 8:16 pm I also think there's a difference between disappointment in a party and anger at a party. Being out of the country, I have no idea how accurate my impression is the UK mood is, but I get the feeling that in 1997 there was disappointment in the Tory party sleaze etc., but this time there's genuine anger at them.
I'm definitely more angry than I was in 1997.

I thought they needed to loose power, but I didn't feel angry at Major, except that he was too weak to the Eurosceptics.

I'm angry at the last 5 PMs, especially the last 3.
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Re: General Election '24

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dyqik wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 8:16 pm I also think there's a difference between disappointment in a party and anger at a party. Being out of the country, I have no idea how accurate my impression is the UK mood is, but I get the feeling that in 1997 there was disappointment in the Tory party sleaze etc., but this time there's genuine anger at them.
Yes, and I think Rishis D day shenanigans have added a non party political anger towards him, plus people are laughing st his Sky TV comments.
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Re: General Election '24

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jimbob wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:00 pm I'm definitely more angry than I was in 1997.
Same, although it may be an age/experience thing. In 97 I’d only ever known Conservative governments (plus a dim awareness as a kid of tail end of Labour not doing a great job). This time I’ve seen a progressive government actually do some decent things (and some less decent ones, obvs) and then seen them all smashed up again, and I am not happy about it, and I want to see the people who did it punished.
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Re: General Election '24

Post by Trinucleus »

Anyone see the Tories' election broadcast tonight? It was a five minute clip of someone making a speech at an event, not even looking at the camera. Quality looked like it was recorded on a phone. Does look like they've given up
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Re: General Election '24

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nekomatic wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:13 pm
jimbob wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:00 pm I'm definitely more angry than I was in 1997.
Same, although it may be an age/experience thing. In 97 I’d only ever known Conservative governments (plus a dim awareness as a kid of tail end of Labour not doing a great job). This time I’ve seen a progressive government actually do some decent things (and some less decent ones, obvs) and then seen them all smashed up again, and I am not happy about it, and I want to see the people who did it punished.
I would be voting Labour if it weren't for my local MP, but I wouldn't be expecting much from them. Labour will be better than the Tories, but I don't see much willingness for them to rebuild or properly fix anything. They've already said "tough choices" too many times for my liking.

Getting the Conservatives out will be cathartic and all, but I think people deserve a bit more than Not Making Things Worse for the next 5 years.
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Re: General Election '24

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monkey wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:10 pm
nekomatic wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:13 pm
jimbob wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:00 pm I'm definitely more angry than I was in 1997.
Same, although it may be an age/experience thing. In 97 I’d only ever known Conservative governments (plus a dim awareness as a kid of tail end of Labour not doing a great job). This time I’ve seen a progressive government actually do some decent things (and some less decent ones, obvs) and then seen them all smashed up again, and I am not happy about it, and I want to see the people who did it punished.
I would be voting Labour if it weren't for my local MP, but I wouldn't be expecting much from them. Labour will be better than the Tories, but I don't see much willingness for them to rebuild or properly fix anything. They've already said "tough choices" too many times for my liking.

Getting the Conservatives out will be cathartic and all, but I think people deserve a bit more than Not Making Things Worse for the next 5 years.
Labour are deliberately not promising specific policies to make things better for a couple of very good reasons: 1) they don't know what the most broken things are and how much it will cost to fix them, because the Tory government has been both lying about what it does know and, and also not asking what needs fixing; 2) it'd distract from putting the Tory incompetence and evil front and center in the campaign; and 3) most of the solutions involve spending more, immigration or undoing Brexit.
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Re: General Election '24

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Information on how many people have been registering to vote online and by paper applications

https://www.registertovote.service.gov.uk/performance
Voter registrations.png
Voter registrations.png (19.75 KiB) Viewed 2941 times
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Re: General Election '24

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dyqik wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:23 pm
monkey wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:10 pm
nekomatic wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:13 pm

Same, although it may be an age/experience thing. In 97 I’d only ever known Conservative governments (plus a dim awareness as a kid of tail end of Labour not doing a great job). This time I’ve seen a progressive government actually do some decent things (and some less decent ones, obvs) and then seen them all smashed up again, and I am not happy about it, and I want to see the people who did it punished.
I would be voting Labour if it weren't for my local MP, but I wouldn't be expecting much from them. Labour will be better than the Tories, but I don't see much willingness for them to rebuild or properly fix anything. They've already said "tough choices" too many times for my liking.

Getting the Conservatives out will be cathartic and all, but I think people deserve a bit more than Not Making Things Worse for the next 5 years.
Labour are deliberately not promising specific policies to make things better for a couple of very good reasons: 1) they don't know what the most broken things are and how much it will cost to fix them, because the Tory government has been both lying about what it does know and, and also not asking what needs fixing; 2) it'd distract from putting the Tory incompetence and evil front and center in the campaign; and 3) most of the solutions involve spending more, immigration or undoing Brexit.
I agree. And to keep repeating myself. Another problem is that the post-Brexit 2024 UK economy has far worse prospects than it did in 1997. Then Blair and Brown could reasonably expect that in a decade people would on average have incomes 25% higher (and they did). That steady growth gave the Blair and Brown governments a great deal of financial leeway to borrow and invest.

But if the economy continues to stagnate every spending decision will be a trade-off. Increase spending here and they have to decrease it there. This is a completely different context to what British people have been used to for most of the past 200 years or so. This doesn’t mean that there can’t be any spending and investment, both Japan and Italy have excellent railways. But the decisions are much more complicated.

Stagnation isn’t inevitable of course. Growth could start ticking over again.
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Re: General Election '24

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Interesting story in today's i paper.

Prominent candidate says that Stalin would have been proud of the NHS targets and that Sunak as Chancellor harmed NHS waiting lists by refusing to increase the numbers of doctors training places.

Interesting because the politician was Jeremy Hunt
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Re: General Election '24

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Woodchopper wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:44 am But if the economy continues to stagnate every spending decision will be a trade-off. Increase spending here and they have to decrease it there. This is a completely different context to what British people have been used to for most of the past 200 years or so. This doesn’t mean that there can’t be any spending and investment, both Japan and Italy have excellent railways. But the decisions are much more complicated.

Stagnation isn’t inevitable of course. Growth could start ticking over again.
There's an old saying among economists, “throughout history there have been only four kinds of economies in the world: advanced, developing, Japan, and Argentina.” The point being that Japan and Argentina reached high among the wealthy, and then stagnated for reasons that are bit tricky to elucidate. And Italy joined the club of late, and maybe we can soon say that Britain joined it too. Other countries in the world stagnated, like Greece and Venezuela, but for much clearer reasons.

I say tricky to elucidate, because it isn't a question of restore standard responsible macroeconomic policies and everything will be lovely. Reasonably responsible macro policies operate, by the standards of their peers who are never entirely responsible themselves, and still they stagnate. So it must be that there are more ingrained issues in these countries - including Britain - that impede growth. In Britain, productivity has been stagnant, while continuing to improve in our nearby peers. Ultimately, productivity is what designates where, approximately, you will sit in the ranks of the well-off. And it just is far from obvious what is the key factor that is different which has got us stuck there.

Japan and Italy have good railways, because they can build and run railways at a sensible cost. Japan's railways are mostly financed by property income on the large property portfolios the railways hold, which in Britain was sold off. Argentina's railways are a crumbling mess, because there has been so little money at all for maintenance or investment, as Hiroshima-scale financial crises meant that every spare peso was needed for income support for the poor. But in Britain, where it costs three times as much to build or maintain a railway as in Italy, there's actually been plenty of money available to the railway, by the standards of our peers, but we are unable to make that money go as far.

One issue that has been repeatedly identified as holding Britain back is the condition of our finance markets. Britain, with its large financial markets, ought to be a great place to finance new businesses. And with our strong academic sector, there are lots of ideas. But the reverse is true. Whilst in California the financiers fall over themselves to get into innovative new businesses - making things perhaps a bit too easy for scams like Theranos - in Britain it is very difficult to get finance for the kind of thing that makes Silicon Valley so lively and world-leading. It would seem that the City has too many easy options to make money without taking those kinds of risks. The City has had it too easy in Britain, because the politicians are falling over themselves to keep in with them, as it is the source of juicy political donations. Why finance risky new enterprises, when there is so much to be made from laundering kleptocrats' ill-gotten gains? That remains a large part of the business of the City and its little helpers in the form of satellite off-shore jurisdictions.

Another issue repeatedly identified is that expenditure on R&D in Britain, as a percent of GDP, is much lower than in our peers. Some of that R&D happens in commercial companies, and would be financed as in the previous paragraph. So that's one hold-up. Another is the ungenerosity of the state in that area.

My suspicion is that on top of that there are a lot of little things, which collectively weigh down productivity and economic activity. Although we don't suffer the costs of crime and corruption to the extent of Italy and Argentina, we seem to have gained a warped set of priorities which make everything a lot harder than it ought to be. And a lot of people have an interest in the perpetuation of these systems, so it is very hard to break them down and simplify them.

Unfortunately in conducting bonfires of the regulations, the Conservatives have done it in axe-grinding ways, burning visible and useful things, mainly with the aim of giving their friends in the city an easy ride. It is actually important that tall buildings shouldn't be clad with combustible cladding. They have had no interest at all in searching through the cupboards and finding the lots of little things, each with its small band of defenders, that would actually make productive business and everyday conduct of public services much easier.
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Re: General Election '24

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Woodchopper wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:44 am
dyqik wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:23 pm
monkey wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:10 pm

I would be voting Labour if it weren't for my local MP, but I wouldn't be expecting much from them. Labour will be better than the Tories, but I don't see much willingness for them to rebuild or properly fix anything. They've already said "tough choices" too many times for my liking.

Getting the Conservatives out will be cathartic and all, but I think people deserve a bit more than Not Making Things Worse for the next 5 years.
Labour are deliberately not promising specific policies to make things better for a couple of very good reasons: 1) they don't know what the most broken things are and how much it will cost to fix them, because the Tory government has been both lying about what it does know and, and also not asking what needs fixing; 2) it'd distract from putting the Tory incompetence and evil front and center in the campaign; and 3) most of the solutions involve spending more, immigration or undoing Brexit.
I agree. And to keep repeating myself. Another problem is that the post-Brexit 2024 UK economy has far worse prospects than it did in 1997. Then Blair and Brown could reasonably expect that in a decade people would on average have incomes 25% higher (and they did). That steady growth gave the Blair and Brown governments a great deal of financial leeway to borrow and invest.

But if the economy continues to stagnate every spending decision will be a trade-off. Increase spending here and they have to decrease it there. This is a completely different context to what British people have been used to for most of the past 200 years or so. This doesn’t mean that there can’t be any spending and investment, both Japan and Italy have excellent railways. But the decisions are much more complicated.

Stagnation isn’t inevitable of course. Growth could start ticking over again.
The best way to end or prevent stagnation is for the government to start spending money again. That grows the economy, increases tax income, and builds businesses, all while delivering benefits to people that increases their productivity.
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Re: General Election '24

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dyqik wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:31 am
Woodchopper wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:44 am
dyqik wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:23 pm

Labour are deliberately not promising specific policies to make things better for a couple of very good reasons: 1) they don't know what the most broken things are and how much it will cost to fix them, because the Tory government has been both lying about what it does know and, and also not asking what needs fixing; 2) it'd distract from putting the Tory incompetence and evil front and center in the campaign; and 3) most of the solutions involve spending more, immigration or undoing Brexit.
I agree. And to keep repeating myself. Another problem is that the post-Brexit 2024 UK economy has far worse prospects than it did in 1997. Then Blair and Brown could reasonably expect that in a decade people would on average have incomes 25% higher (and they did). That steady growth gave the Blair and Brown governments a great deal of financial leeway to borrow and invest.

But if the economy continues to stagnate every spending decision will be a trade-off. Increase spending here and they have to decrease it there. This is a completely different context to what British people have been used to for most of the past 200 years or so. This doesn’t mean that there can’t be any spending and investment, both Japan and Italy have excellent railways. But the decisions are much more complicated.

Stagnation isn’t inevitable of course. Growth could start ticking over again.
The best way to end or prevent stagnation is for the government to start spending money again. That grows the economy, increases tax income, and builds businesses, all while delivering benefits to people that increases their productivity.
Belgium's recovery from the 2008 crisis being the poster child for this analysis, as the lack of a government meant it couldn't implement an austerity budget
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Re: General Election '24

Post by IvanV »

dyqik wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:31 am The best way to end or prevent stagnation is for the government to start spending money again. That grows the economy, increases tax income, and builds businesses, all while delivering benefits to people that increases their productivity.
In fact they have been spending money of late. Public services may be going to pot, but a record amount of money was spent to achieve that disastrous outcome. UK public spending as a % of GDP is at its highest levels for recent decades. Ignoring year ending March 2021, where it was unusually high due to Covid, all of years ending March 2022, 2023 and 2024 have been significantly higher than in any other year in the 21st century. And probably the entire postwar period. Year ending March 2010 was another local peak, and with austerity it did fall from then until 2020, though in the end only a little and not as much as Osbourne said it would. But since Covid, spending has remained higher than 2010 in all recent years, albeit falling very slightly from y/e 2023 to y/e 2024.

This is what I was trying to point out in my previous post. Like in Japan, the usual accelerator pedals of the economy - interest rates, public spending - just aren't giving us the economic accelerations we previously experienced from them. This is true stagnation.

Of course our schools are crumbling, the NHS is overburdened, local councils are going bankrupt, the roads are falling apart, etc. The problem is that to maintain the services we are used to, and our growing expectations and demands for it, spending needs to grow much more than that. But aggregate spending is currently at a historical high, the 20/21 Covid year aside. And aggregate spending is to some degree what matters from the perspective of getting the economy going. There is also what it is spent upon, hence my mention of our low spending on R&D, but that's a different effect.
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Re: General Election '24

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IvanV wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:13 am In fact they have been spending money of late. Public services may be going to pot, but a record amount of money was spent to achieve that disastrous outcome. UK public spending as a % of GDP is at its highest levels for recent decades. Ignoring year ending March 2021, where it was unusually high due to Covid, all of years ending March 2022, 2023 and 2024 have been significantly higher than in any other year in the 21st century. And probably the entire postwar period. Year ending March 2010 was another local peak, and with austerity it did fall from then until 2020, though in the end only a little and not as much as Osbourne said it would. But since Covid, spending has remained higher than 2010 in all recent years, albeit falling very slightly from y/e 2023 to y/e 2024.
As the Tories have discovered, you can increase public spending as a % of GDP simply by stagnating GDP and having the population get older and sicker (and having it cost more to care for them because you've let inflation get out of control).
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Re: General Election '24

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IvanV wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:13 am
dyqik wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:31 am The best way to end or prevent stagnation is for the government to start spending money again. That grows the economy, increases tax income, and builds businesses, all while delivering benefits to people that increases their productivity.
In fact they have been spending money of late. Public services may be going to pot, but a record amount of money was spent to achieve that disastrous outcome. UK public spending as a % of GDP is at its highest levels for recent decades. Ignoring year ending March 2021, where it was unusually high due to Covid, all of years ending March 2022, 2023 and 2024 have been significantly higher than in any other year in the 21st century. And probably the entire postwar period. Year ending March 2010 was another local peak, and with austerity it did fall from then until 2020, though in the end only a little and not as much as Osbourne said it would. But since Covid, spending has remained higher than 2010 in all recent years, albeit falling very slightly from y/e 2023 to y/e 2024.

This is what I was trying to point out in my previous post. Like in Japan, the usual accelerator pedals of the economy - interest rates, public spending - just aren't giving us the economic accelerations we previously experienced from them. This is true stagnation.

Of course our schools are crumbling, the NHS is overburdened, local councils are going bankrupt, the roads are falling apart, etc. The problem is that to maintain the services we are used to, and our growing expectations and demands for it, spending needs to grow much more than that. But aggregate spending is currently at a historical high, the 20/21 Covid year aside. And aggregate spending is to some degree what matters from the perspective of getting the economy going. There is also what it is spent upon, hence my mention of our low spending on R&D, but that's a different effect.
I'm not sure it is as clear cut as that.

I know the economy is huge but I wouldn't think that as much of the spending on fraud and overpriced contracts would actually end up in the wider economy compared to more normal spending. For example the £10Bn (Telegraph 2024) £16Bn (Guardian 2023) on Covid fraud and waste would disproportionately end up with already rich people who are unlikely to spend as much in the UK - especially if they are worried about it getting recovered later
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Re: General Election '24

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monkey wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:10 pmLabour will be better than the Tories, but I don't see much willingness for them to rebuild or properly fix anything. They've already said "tough choices" too many times for my liking.

Getting the Conservatives out will be cathartic and all, but I think people deserve a bit more than Not Making Things Worse for the next 5 years.
With all the caveats that the choices are indeed tough, and much more so than in 1997, I thought this made for interesting reading.
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Re: General Election '24

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jimbob wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:45 am
IvanV wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:13 am
dyqik wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:31 am The best way to end or prevent stagnation is for the government to start spending money again. That grows the economy, increases tax income, and builds businesses, all while delivering benefits to people that increases their productivity.
In fact they have been spending money of late. Public services may be going to pot, but a record amount of money was spent to achieve that disastrous outcome. UK public spending as a % of GDP is at its highest levels for recent decades. Ignoring year ending March 2021, where it was unusually high due to Covid, all of years ending March 2022, 2023 and 2024 have been significantly higher than in any other year in the 21st century. And probably the entire postwar period. Year ending March 2010 was another local peak, and with austerity it did fall from then until 2020, though in the end only a little and not as much as Osbourne said it would. But since Covid, spending has remained higher than 2010 in all recent years, albeit falling very slightly from y/e 2023 to y/e 2024.

This is what I was trying to point out in my previous post. Like in Japan, the usual accelerator pedals of the economy - interest rates, public spending - just aren't giving us the economic accelerations we previously experienced from them. This is true stagnation.

Of course our schools are crumbling, the NHS is overburdened, local councils are going bankrupt, the roads are falling apart, etc. The problem is that to maintain the services we are used to, and our growing expectations and demands for it, spending needs to grow much more than that. But aggregate spending is currently at a historical high, the 20/21 Covid year aside. And aggregate spending is to some degree what matters from the perspective of getting the economy going. There is also what it is spent upon, hence my mention of our low spending on R&D, but that's a different effect.
I'm not sure it is as clear cut as that.

I know the economy is huge but I wouldn't think that as much of the spending on fraud and overpriced contracts would actually end up in the wider economy compared to more normal spending. For example the £10Bn (Telegraph 2024) £16Bn (Guardian 2023) on Covid fraud and waste would disproportionately end up with already rich people who are unlikely to spend as much in the UK - especially if they are worried about it getting recovered later
Yes, this is obviously correct, even before you account for how much it it leaves the UK to various tax havens.

Spending money on the NHS frontline, or building HS2, for example, would be far more beneficial.
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Re: General Election '24

Post by IvanV »

jimbob wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:45 am
IvanV wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:13 am
dyqik wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:31 am The best way to end or prevent stagnation is for the government to start spending money again. That grows the economy, increases tax income, and builds businesses, all while delivering benefits to people that increases their productivity.
In fact they have been spending money of late. ...
I'm not sure it is as clear cut as that.

I know the economy is huge but I wouldn't think that as much of the spending on fraud and overpriced contracts would actually end up in the wider economy compared to more normal spending. For example the £10Bn (Telegraph 2024) £16Bn (Guardian 2023) on Covid fraud and waste would disproportionately end up with already rich people who are unlikely to spend as much in the UK - especially if they are worried about it getting recovered later
You make a correct point, and an important point, and one I agree with. But I don't think it does much to get us out of our low productivity trap.

The traditional analysis - that I'm disagreeing with - is that what matters is the size of public spending, and that acts as an accelerator because wherever you pump money into the economy, it recirculates. As you say, that's not quite true. The structure of public spending does matter. It's better to put money in the pockets of the less well off as they have greater propensity to spend. I agree with that. But what I am saying is that is not the cause of our economic stagnation that where our productivity fails to increase.

We could, for example, go even further and tax the rich more and put more money in the pockets of the less well off. And I am in favour of that. And that would give a greater boost. There are micro arguments around that, that a lot of less well-off people have been so frightened for their long-term financial health that they save as much as they can. But, that aside, assuming they did spend it as they did in the past, still the evidence is that such a spending-led growth still wouldn't do much for our productivity, and it is low productivity that is holding us back.

The low productivity problem in the UK economy is much more deep-seated than these issues.
dyqik wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 12:40 pm Yes, this is obviously correct, even before you account for how much it it leaves the UK to various tax havens.

Spending money on the NHS frontline, or building HS2, for example, would be far more beneficial.
These are two areas where spending has been growing in recent times. Spending on the NHS is one of the government ares of spending where spending has been going up. But not enough to stop it going to pot. And of course HS2 is being built. It might not be being built as much was originally planned. But it still costs a lot more than originally planned.
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Woodchopper
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Re: General Election '24

Post by Woodchopper »

dyqik wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:31 am
Woodchopper wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:44 am
dyqik wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:23 pm

Labour are deliberately not promising specific policies to make things better for a couple of very good reasons: 1) they don't know what the most broken things are and how much it will cost to fix them, because the Tory government has been both lying about what it does know and, and also not asking what needs fixing; 2) it'd distract from putting the Tory incompetence and evil front and center in the campaign; and 3) most of the solutions involve spending more, immigration or undoing Brexit.
I agree. And to keep repeating myself. Another problem is that the post-Brexit 2024 UK economy has far worse prospects than it did in 1997. Then Blair and Brown could reasonably expect that in a decade people would on average have incomes 25% higher (and they did). That steady growth gave the Blair and Brown governments a great deal of financial leeway to borrow and invest.

But if the economy continues to stagnate every spending decision will be a trade-off. Increase spending here and they have to decrease it there. This is a completely different context to what British people have been used to for most of the past 200 years or so. This doesn’t mean that there can’t be any spending and investment, both Japan and Italy have excellent railways. But the decisions are much more complicated.

Stagnation isn’t inevitable of course. Growth could start ticking over again.
The best way to end or prevent stagnation is for the government to start spending money again. That grows the economy, increases tax income, and builds businesses, all while delivering benefits to people that increases their productivity.
That's the problem. Japan tried this for decades but its GDP per capita is where it was 30 years ago and government debt is 263% of GDP. Italian GDP per capita is lower in 2022 than what it was fifteen years previously in 2007, and its debt to GDP ratio is 137%. The key aspect of a stagnating economy is that the relationship between spending on investment and growth is broken. The government can spend all it can but it doesn't get payback in sustained economic growth. Growth isn't natural, Brazil for example has huge natural resources and a smart population, but after some fluctuations its 2022 GDP per capita is still where it was at the 2008 crisis.

Which is not to say that spending on investment doesn't deliver growth in the US. But the US has a dynamic economy which Britain might have lost.
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Re: General Election '24

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Surely the biggest pot of spending that is shafting the economy is housing / mortgages.

The Tory plan /solution is to get rid of stamp duty for first time buyers. To me that is madness. In a constrained supply, removing Stamp Duty doesn't bring down prices, it just goes into the sellers pocket, or it would if they weren't buying something else to live in - so it just keeps the bubble inflated.

Surely the thing to do is increase stamp duty... house prices won't go up (for the same reason they don't come down, people bid at their limit already) and at least the additional revenue could be put to something useful (like building more homes, training more builders) rather than just increasing the size of a mortgage that banks earn interest on.
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Re: General Election '24

Post by IvanV »

TopBadger wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 1:26 pm Surely the biggest pot of spending that is shafting the economy is housing / mortgages.

The Tory plan /solution is to get rid of stamp duty for first time buyers. To me that is madness. In a constrained supply, removing Stamp Duty doesn't bring down prices, it just goes into the sellers pocket, or it would if they weren't buying something else to live in - so it just keeps the bubble inflated.

Surely the thing to do is increase stamp duty... house prices won't go up (for the same reason they don't come down, people bid at their limit already) and at least the additional revenue could be put to something useful (like building more homes, training more builders) rather than just increasing the size of a mortgage that banks earn interest on.
Expensive property is a drag on the British economy. As you correctly analyse, reducing stamp duty for first time buyers just puts money in the pockets of sellers. A piece of "cleverness" by the Tories that looks like it is helping the worse off while actually helping the better off. The only way you can reduce the cost of property is to increase the supply. And it needs a really large increase in supply. Most other countries have much more occupiable property per household than Britain.

I see your logic in suggesting putting stamp duty up. But economists generally dislike stamp duty because it is a tax on mobility. A dynamic economy requires a mobile workforce, and a large transaction cost to moving house makes the labour market less mobile.

There is some logic to stamp duty - a willing buyer and a willing seller means that there is an economic gain to tax. But much better to tax the occupation of property, rather than the transaction to change its ownership. Of course, we already have property based local taxation, council tax. By international standards, it is a low tax. Its banded nature means that it is regressive. It was deliberately designed to benefit the rich. It is very disappointing that the Blair-Brown government did not reform it back to something sensible, before it became entrenched.
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Re: General Election '24

Post by TopBadger »

Is it really a tax on mobility though?

I'd wager most sale and purchase of houses don't involve people moving very far from where they started, let alone changing jobs.

The type of jobs that require relocation generally come with compensation to ease the move.
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