Bob Vylan at Glastonbury

[discovolante]

Well I'm sure this is going to be uncontroversial.

Since seeing Bob Vylan's set and the media response afterwards I've been stewing away and feeling pretty angry to be honest. A couple of the people I was with over the weekend had parents in the army so I'm not making light of how his comments could be interpreted. But there's a pretty striking difference between the reaction to someone saying something like that so directly, and politicians and the media twisting themselves in knots to avoid ever actually saying what they're doing (or allowing to happen).

[Chris Preston]

Watching this from afar, I can't help feeling there has been a massive overreaction with some people getting outraged as an opportunity of attacking people they do not like.

Having said that, back in the 60s and even the 80s, this sort of display would have been laughed off as a protest against bad stuff that was happening. However, times have changed. The rise of social media and echo chambers means there are people who are likely to take something like this literally and act on it. From that perspective, authorities are going to feel obliged to take it seriously. It was an inflammatory thing to do.

The conflation by a number of people of anti-Israel commentary with anti-Semitism is making this whole area a minefield to navigate. There is no world where it is right for an army to control the distribution of humanitarian aid, but to then shoot and kill those trying to access that aid. In fact, this is a war crime. I am finding it virtually impossible to have this conversation in some quarters without accusations of anti-Semitism. Netanyahu et al. have done their propaganda well.

[Grumble]

I can’t help but think that conflating the IDF with Jews - which you have to do to say that an anti-IDF chant is anti-Semitic - is deeply f.cked up.

[discovolante]

I can’t help but think that conflating the IDF with Jews - which you have to do to say that an anti-IDF chant is anti-Semitic - is deeply f.cked up.

It's obscene, and the Daily Mail in particular has outright lied by claiming on its front page that the chant was 'death to Israelis'. There are plenty of ways that, if you wanted, you could argue that that's something that would follow, but it's not what he said at all.

[discovolante]

By the way...I know this is a bit childish and probably isn't really that important, but I was originally planning to go see Weezer (who were on at the same time as Bob Vylan and Kneecap), because I'd seen Bob Vylan and Kneecap before and musically prefer Weezer to Kneecap. But Keir Starmer trying to interfere with it all made me change my mind. So take that Keir.

Anyway, as you were.

[Opti]

Many people find it easier to express outrage about a band at Glastonbury than to express outrage at what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank.

Had anyone in charge of programming had the vaguest idea about contemporary music they would have known that the Bob Vylan set might just contain something "outrageous". Naturally, some heads will roll at the BBC because of this (it has been reported worldwide) but, meanwhile, the genocide in Gaza continues unimpeded.

What a world we live in, eh?

edit: ISTR posting a Bob Vylan track on the 'what are you listening to' thread.

[Martin Y]

BBC has a story today about the chief rabbi saying it's a "national shame" that such "jew-hate" was broadcast. I honestly suspect they published it as an example of how hyperbolically over the top and misdirected the criticism has got. If any nation is shamed by current events it's not Britain because of some band getting on the telly and wishing death on an army that's killed thousands of civilians.

[discovolante]

Many people find it easier to express outrage about a band at Glastonbury than to express outrage at what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank.

Had anyone in charge of programming had the vaguest idea about contemporary music they would have known that the Bob Vylan set might just contain something "outrageous". Naturally, some heads will roll at the BBC because of this (it has been reported worldwide) but, meanwhile, the genocide in Gaza continues unimpeded.

What a world we live in, eh?

edit: ISTR posting a Bob Vylan track on the 'what are you listening to' thread.

So you did. We Live Here is a great track.

Honestly I have slightly mixed feelings about his full comment (violence is the only language some people understand) - I don't even think he's wrong about that but I suspect the majority of people who have lived through that kind of violence would never want to see it again, and to publicly call for it is a bit unnerving. But on the other hand it's easy to forget that it genuinely takes guts to stand up and be that direct. If he is antisemitic I didn't get that from anything he said and well, to repeat what everyone else has said, to equate the IDF with Jews is horrific. As Chris Preston says, the propaganda has been very effective. I hope this incident brings that to light in the long run.

[Martin Y]

PS Yes the people in charge of programming do know what's likely to happen and the bands know what the deal is too. There's a threshold at which they won't be available for streaming until edited and a threshold at which a live stream will just be pulled. I've seen that happen. Mostly that's about swearing rather than anything libellous or criminal. There's an entire department whose sole job is to listen to each performance for compliance and note the fall of every "f.ck" and "c.nt" on top of noting every bit of music that goes out for performance rights.

The bands are performing to the crowd, not for the radio, and it's an afterthought that they're also being streamed. It used to be only a few headliners who were broadcast live, but with streaming too it's now more common, so there's a lot more live stuff to worry about and more upcoming bands who might think a bit of controversy will get them noticed.

[discovolante]

PS Yes the people in charge of programming do know what's likely to happen and the bands know what the deal is too. There's a threshold at which they won't be available for streaming until edited and a threshold at which a live stream will just be pulled. I've seen that happen. Mostly that's about swearing rather than anything libellous or criminal. There's an entire department whose sole job is to listen to each performance for compliance and note the fall of every "f.ck" and "c.nt" on top of noting every bit of music that goes out for performance rights.

The bands are performing to the crowd, not for the radio, and it's an afterthought that they're also being streamed. It used to be only a few headliners who were broadcast live, but with streaming too it's now more common, so there's a lot more live stuff to worry about and more upcoming bands who might think a bit of controversy will get them noticed.

Sorry Martin, my brain is absolutely melted today. Are you saying someone at the BBC sneakily allowed that to be broadcast or that it slipped through the net because of the amount of stuff that needs to be monitored?

[Tristan]

If he is antisemitic I didn't get that from anything he said

Everyone's focusing on the "Death to the IDF" chant. I'd love to know what the crowd's reaction would have been if an artist had called out "Death to Hamas!". I suspect it wouldn't have been cheers from the audience.

Anyway, that aside, I'm more concerned about his comments about his former boss, saying "I've done it all, including working for f***ing zionists" and "from the river to the sea, palestine will be free". I don't think claims of antisemitism are that much of a stretch.

[discovolante]

If he is antisemitic I didn't get that from anything he said

Everyone's focusing on the "Death to the IDF" chant. I'd love to know what the crowd's reaction would have been if an artist had called out "Death to Hamas!". I suspect it wouldn't have been cheers from the audience.

Anyway, that aside, I'm more concerned about his comments about his former boss, saying "I've done it all, including working for f***ing zionists" and "from the river to the sea, palestine will be free". I don't think claims of antisemitism are that much of a stretch.

I suspect it wouldn't have been either, given the entirely disproportionate death toll caused by the IDF since 7 October.

[noggins]

FIFY "Death to the IDF, when they are engaged in illegal military activities"