noggins wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 10:11 am
Arent GCSEs graded on a curve?
No. Like many higher and professional exams, they are standard set on the basis of expert judgements. It is inevitable that exams vary in difficulty at the moment*, and this must be taken into account in setting pass marks and grade boundaries. These are essentially social constructs, but nonetheless seem to work - GCSEs for instance are quite good predictors of later academic performance.
*my tribe has always been interested in using Item Response Theory and other approaches to identify the absolute difficulty of items, but of course that only works when an item has been used before.
Lew Dolby wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 8:33 am
Doesn't the level of language required depend on what jobs a migrant might be able to do if/when then can work ?
I'd of* thought that a nurse, eg, would require a greater skill at English than say a general labourer.
Yes it does. Which is why the announcement is about specific visas/routes for skilled workers.
Yes, there's a big difference between responding to 'Have you got this in size 12?' and 'I think I'm having a heart attack'.
noggins wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 10:11 am
Arent GCSEs graded on a curve?
No. Like many higher and professional exams, they are standard set on the basis of expert judgements. It is inevitable that exams vary in difficulty at the moment*, and this must be taken into account in setting pass marks and grade boundaries. These are essentially social constructs, but nonetheless seem to work - GCSEs for instance are quite good predictors of later academic performance.
*my tribe has always been interested in using Item Response Theory and other approaches to identify the absolute difficulty of items, but of course that only works when an item has been used before.
shpalman wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 6:32 am
Maybe they could have told us which exam they would actually have to pass.
They do. Unless they intend to tear up the whole carefully designed system and start again, which is unlikely.
So you have to pass a Secure English Language Test of the appropriate level, and these come in 6 levels of difficulty as defined by the Council of Europe standards. There are a number of providers of SELTs, and both the providers and their tests have to be approved. The level of test you need to pass depends upon what type of entry you want. For example, skilled worker requires B1 level.
So unless they are tearing up this whole system, which seems unlikely, the implication is that certain types of entry will need to pass a higher level of test than currently. And my guess would be that B1 is what they mean by A-level standard, as currently required for skilled workers, but not for many others. I linked the definitions of the levels above, and the present requirements of standard for visa type. And I think that because B2 sounds more like a degree level skill in a foreign language. But by all means look at those levels I linked and form your own judgment.
And we should recall that there is a certain amount of performative politics in these announcements, which is why they leave a bit of wiggle room to be sensible about it.
noggins wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 10:11 am
Arent GCSEs graded on a curve?
No. Like many higher and professional exams, they are standard set on the basis of expert judgements. It is inevitable that exams vary in difficulty at the moment*, and this must be taken into account in setting pass marks and grade boundaries. These are essentially social constructs, but nonetheless seem to work - GCSEs for instance are quite good predictors of later academic performance.
*my tribe has always been interested in using Item Response Theory and other approaches to identify the absolute difficulty of items, but of course that only works when an item has been used before.
Not the best wiki article, but then I'm supposed to be at work...
Grade 9 is the top X proportion of those meeting grade 8, IIRC
Grade 7 is the basis for Grade 9 if I remember correctly (and still at work, so all this is IIRC too!)
The standard setting doesn't take place at every grade boundary but only at certain ones, of which Grade 7 is one if memory serves. Intermediate grades between the standard set ones are determined with reference to two of the standard set grades, e.g. Grade Y is set to be half way between Grade X and Grade Z. Grade 9 isn't a 'between, so is set on solely on a lower grade. But the point is the whole scale shifts up and down on the basis of how difficult the exams are. The scale is criterion referenced, not norm referenced, even if every point is not criterion referenced.
JQH wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 2:22 pm
Let's hope this kind of thinking does not catch on world wide; what if South Africa started expelling pale people who can't speak Zulu or Xhosa?
Why would they? It has 11 national languages, of which English is one and the main language used across government, business and higher education.
True but many people do not like using a colonial language. I can quite easily see a populist party coming to power including ceasing its use as one of their demands. Sure it would be a massive act of self harm but they would not be the first country to adopt a disastrous populist policy.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.
JQH wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 2:22 pm
Let's hope this kind of thinking does not catch on world wide; what if South Africa started expelling pale people who can't speak Zulu or Xhosa?
Why would they? It has 11 national languages, of which English is one and the main language used across government, business and higher education.
True but many people do not like using a colonial language. I can quite easily see a populist party coming to power including ceasing its use as one of their demands. Sure it would be a massive act of self harm but they would not be the first country to adopt a disastrous populist policy.
Even so it’s a daft comparison. We’re not talking about expelling British citizens who don’t have an A-level in English. We’re talking about a requirement to be fluent in English at a particular level to get a visa for high skilled jobs. There’s a bit of a difference.
a) GCSE English is graded on a curve, so 35% get grade 3 or less by design
or
b) GCSE English is graded on a curve, so 35% get grade 3 or less by design, and the problem is, that's currently objectively a poor standard.
(ie IF GCSE English teaching had a renaissance of brilliance, 35% would still get 3 or less, but that '3' would be a higher standard)
or
c) its not graded on a curve, at least not those grades, so if GCSE English teaching was better, less would get 3 or less.
(Id also like to know the per capita budgetary data for the tripartite system, but nobody knows that)
noggins wrote: Mon Oct 20, 2025 11:02 am
Ok, so is its
a) GCSE English is graded on a curve, so 35% get grade 3 or less by design
or
b) GCSE English is graded on a curve, so 35% get grade 3 or less by design, and the problem is, that's currently objectively a poor standard.
(ie IF GCSE English teaching had a renaissance of brilliance, 35% would still get 3 or less, but that '3' would be a higher standard)
or
c) its not graded on a curve, at least not those grades, so if GCSE English teaching was better, less would get 3 or less.
(Id also like to know the per capita budgetary data for the tripartite system, but nobody knows that)
My understanding is that it's (c).
Except for grade 9.
A couple of my kids were young enough to get grade 9s and did.
I've taught plenty of Chinese students, language ability does vary but there are so many misconceptions about this that it's somewhat infuriating.
Our university entrance requirements for language ability is already higher than the requirements for a study visa (so I'm told). I'm sure we're not unusual among universities in this (saying this without evidence, but we're a struggling mid-ranker, the thought that idk UCL might have lower entrance requirements than us is amusing). If students are struggling or appear to be struggling with the language it's either because
a) there was some cheating in the exam - I wouldn't discount this directly, but we'd need clear evidence of this before we repeat the mistake of destroying thousands of young people's lives.
b) much more likely, based on my personal interaction with these students: language exams test the ability to pass language exams, speaking the language efficiently in a variety of contexts is something else entirely. Speaking is an emotional exercise, you can understand a lot, enough to follow your lecturers, and read, and produce coursework, but then freeze up when unexpectedly confronted by a lady in the gym. It's often a confidence issue, and I found that particularly my Chinese students are rather shy about speaking even when they understand perfectly what I'm saying.
And I understand from my own experience; I have been learning Polish for five years, I can read academic literature in my area because there's no time limit for me to make sure I understand (unlike in a conversation). I had a discussion about Bhutanese politics with my teacher yesterday, but I basically pay her to be patient while I fish for words and also not to laugh when I get the case endings wrong. The other day I wanted to ask for a table for two in the restaurant (literally lesson 3 on duolingo), and I hammed up completely, couldn't remember which version of the number two I should use. While I stood there like an idiot clutching the confidently taken non-tourist menu, the waiter switched to English because he had other customers to take care of.
So a little bit of patience and understanding here goes a long way - tbh I find this discourse a bit galling coming from a nation where people take 5 years French at school and can't say anything more than bonjour after that. No judgement, but, like, you should know how difficult this is. The notion that "if you come to this country you should speak the language" is fine for a certain minimum I guess, but to acquire confidence to use it in all manner of everyday situations takes a bit of time of actually living in the country, for most people.
But also I don't understand (or rather I do, but we'll get to that) the fuss around this here. Sure I'll want my nurse to be able to communicate with me, but I don't see why I should care if the chef speaks English as long as the food is tasty.
But in another way I do have a suspicion of what this is about, being linked to the idea of "integration". The issue with going through Southall and not hearing a word of English is not because the Southallese can't speak English, but it's if you meet a friend in the street, you speak in the language you're both most comfortable with. Increasing the language thresholds for new arrivals is not going to make any difference in Southall, but unless we want to legislate what language people are allowed to speak on the street (not recommended for a country with aspirations of being a liberal democracy and having free speech and all that), all this is just tough talk to appear to do something. What language I speak with my brother in the streets of Croydon is none of anyone's effing business.
I've never had a signature, and it never did me any harm
I've noticed that the female Chinese students make more effort both in language and in sociability. I don't know if this is cultural. There'a also some male privilege going on with the Chinese boys not putting weights back, not sharing kit abd generally being less considerate. The one exception was gay. He really did not want to go back to China.
