Anti-semitic pogroms in Europe in 2024

[bjn]

FWIW I expect Israel to be banned from the competition... given Russia is banned and the UN has yet to determine whether it committed genocide in Ukraine, whereas the UN has already determined Israel has committed genocide in Gaza.

Which begs the question, should teams from countries persuing genocidal policies be allowed to play in the UK?

[headshot]

FWIW I expect Israel to be banned from the competition... given Russia is banned and the UN has yet to determine whether it committed genocide in Ukraine, whereas the UN has already determined Israel has committed genocide in Gaza.

Which begs the question, should teams from countries persuing genocidal policies be allowed to play in the UK?

FIFA banned Russia after Ukraine.

FIFA has not banned Israel despite the UN concluding that they’ve committed genocide.

So there’s that.

Though that’s probably not the reason the WMP have banned the fans. It’s probably because they incited violence in Amsterdam.

The reaction to that violence in Amsterdam was equally abhorrent, but surely no-one can argue that the Maccabi fans were the victims here.

Would the violence towards Jewish communities in Amsterdam have happened if Maccabi fans hadn’t turned up and kicked things off? Perhaps. Maybe there was a section of society looking for a reason to attack Jews.

The Maccabi fans’ actions made things much worse for the local Jewish communities.

Perhaps WMP had intelligence of Maccabi fans planning trouble and were worried about an escalation. Sure, multiple parties would be to blame, but sometimes the best way to prevent a fire is to remove the catalyst.

[Grumble]

The Maccabi fans being Jewish is tied up with their hooliganism, but the main problem is the hooliganism. I don’t think Protestants or Unionists are a problem because of the antics (largely in the past I think) of Rangers fans.

[Tristan]

Though that’s probably not the reason the WMP have banned the fans. It’s probably because they incited violence in Amsterdam.

The reaction to that violence in Amsterdam was equally abhorrent, but surely no-one can argue that the Maccabi fans were the victims here.

Would the violence towards Jewish communities in Amsterdam have happened if Maccabi fans hadn’t turned up and kicked things off? Perhaps. Maybe there was a section of society looking for a reason to attack Jews.

The Maccabi fans’ actions made things much worse for the local Jewish communities.

Perhaps WMP had intelligence of Maccabi fans planning trouble and were worried about an escalation. Sure, multiple parties would be to blame, but sometimes the best way to prevent a fire is to remove the catalyst.

As I said before, I imagine you wouldn't dream of writing about it in those terms if something like the below happened:

With all the St George's crosses that have been going up I wonder how people would have reacted in the following scenario:
- A group of Asian guys goes around a town taking down some of the St George's crosses and burning them, offensively chanting as they do
- A white cabbie shouts back at them and has his cab attacked
- The local racists start some whatsapp groups and talk about going "P*ki bashing"
- The local racists, helped by local white cabbies, start going around town finding muslims and Asians to beat up
- They conduct multiple hit and run attacks across town and send some of the Asians to hospital.

And with regards to this on the reason for the ban:

Though that’s probably not the reason the WMP have banned the fans. It’s probably because they incited violence in Amsterdam.

There's no evidence that this is probably the reason. It's equally likely that they had intelligence that violence would be directed towards them.

[Grumble]

There's no evidence that this is probably the reason. It's equally likely that they had intelligence that violence would be directed towards them.

Don’t be silly Tristan, we’ve witnessed Maccabi fans being violent this year. This is not a lingering reputation which you might argue is outdated for England fans, it’s clearly here and now.

[Tristan]

There's no evidence that this is probably the reason. It's equally likely that they had intelligence that violence would be directed towards them.

Don’t be silly Tristan, we’ve witnessed Maccabi fans being violent this year. This is not a lingering reputation which you might argue is outdated for England fans, it’s clearly here and now.

There are many fans out there with violent fans that don't have their fans banned in total. It is equally likely, given what happened in Amsterdam last year, that the risk they saw was in violence towards them, which we saw on a large scale last year.

[Sciolus]

There are also clubs out there with violent fans that do have their fans banned in total. Pearl-clutching article from a month ago.

[Grumble]

If you think you have a powder keg in your city you don’t invite someone in with a lit match who will gleefully stick the match everywhere they can.

[headshot]

If you think you have a powder keg in your city you don’t invite someone in with a lit match who will gleefully stick the match everywhere they can.

In Tristan’s version of this metaphor, the person holding the lit match desperately trying to find a powder keg to light is acting in good faith and just wants to enjoy watching the powder keg storage championships.

[headshot]

There are also clubs out there with violent fans that do have their fans banned in total. Pearl-clutching article from a month ago.

It took my a few seconds to find several examples of this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/ar ... wk1jgn15lo

https://sports.yahoo.com/article/inter- ... 33534.html

https://www.reuters.com/sports/soccer/f ... 025-10-17/

[Tristan]

I get the “lit match” analogy, but it doesn’t really fit. In Amsterdam most of the violence was directed at Maccabi fans, not by them. As I’ve said before they’re not saints, and anyone who’s seen them at away games knows some of them can be loud, antagonistic and obnoxious. But that’s true of plenty of fanbases, and it doesn’t justify treating them as if they’re asking for violence.

What may be driving the concern this time is the threat towards them. Asrar Rashid, a Birmingham-based Islamic scholar, said in a lecture posted to YouTube on in October that when Maccabi come to Birmingham “we will not show them mercy.” That’s a threat.

So if there’s a “powder keg”, the focus probably should be on those promising to attack them. That hasn’t been part of the narrative enough so far. Banning Maccabi fans because others might target them is the police taking the path of least resistance and calling it prudence.

[headshot]

Chanting “Death to Arabs” while pulling down Palestinian flags is a variety of asking for violence isn’t it?

[Tristan]

That’s kind of the point though. You can call out that chanting for what it is, ugly and indefensible, without implying it makes violence against them understandable.

Once you start talking about people “asking for violence”, you’re edging into justifying the threats that have been made. That’s not calling for accountability, it’s excusing aggression.

I don’t think it’s the kind of justification people would use in other contexts. My hypothetical of Asians taking down St George’s flags and chanting obnoxiously would absolutely not get this kind of reaction if it led to white racists beating them up. There’d be an understandable outcry if a legal event with lots of Muslims was banned in the area because of previous violence aimed at them as a “response” to them taking down those flags.

The police still have a duty to protect visiting fans, however obnoxious some of them might be. If the response to threats is to keep the side away, that’s not prudence, it’s capitulation.

[Grumble]

That’s kind of the point though. You can call out that chanting for what it is, ugly and indefensible, without implying it makes violence against them understandable.

Once you start talking about people “asking for violence”, you’re edging into justifying the threats that have been made. That’s not calling for accountability, it’s excusing aggression.

I don’t think it’s the kind of justification people would use in other contexts. My hypothetical of Asians taking down St George’s flags and chanting obnoxiously would absolutely not get this kind of reaction if it led to white racists beating them up. There’d be an understandable outcry if a legal event with lots of Muslims was banned in the area because of previous violence aimed at them as a “response” to them taking down those flags.

The police still have a duty to protect visiting fans, however obnoxious some of them might be. If the response to threats is to keep the side away, that’s not prudence, it’s capitulation.

The police have a duty to keep the peace, and if that means banning individuals or groups who are likely to disturb the peace from entering an area then they have the powers to do that.

[bob sterman]

The police have a duty to keep the peace, and if that means banning individuals or groups who are likely to disturb the peace from entering an area then they have the powers to do that.

Technical - but significant point - in this instance the police have not used that sort of legislation to ban any individuals / groups from entering an area.

They have contributed to the Birmingham's Safety Advisory Group - a body convened by Birmingham City Council. And the council have issued a safety certificate to Aston Villa allowing the match to go ahead but only without away supporters. If Villa admitted away fans - and held the match without following the terms of their safety certificate - the club could be fined.

This is quite different from police banning a class of people from entering an area.

[Grumble]

The police have confirmed that the advice was due to the hooliganism rampant among Maccabi supporters.

[jimbob]

The police have confirmed that the advice was due to the hooliganism rampant among Maccabi supporters.

Link, please?

[Grumble]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... SApp_Other

[jimbob]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... SApp_Other

Thanks

[Si_B]

I find it interesting that no-one appears to have picked up that the allegations made by WM Police about the Dutch Police's view of what happened in Amsterdam that were reported in The Guradian article mentioned above have been described by the Dutch Police as "not true" and in some cases "obviously inaccurate". None of the disputed claims appear in an investigation by the Dutch justice and security ministry dated in May.

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/ar ... -vcvhwr0jz

The Dutch Police say:
Claim: 200 Israelis were “linked” to the IDF.
Response: “We did not investigate any IDF backgrounds … most young men in Israel have some connection to the IDF but we did not investigate it and we don’t have a number for that.”
Claim: Some 500 to 600 of them deliberately targeted “Muslim communities”.
Response: “It would be small groups in the city that would get into fights … I don’t have a number [on] how many actually partook in disorder.”
Claim: Maccabi fans threw members of the public into the river.
Response: “We have evidence of one case [where] you can hear someone say, ‘Yell “free Palestine” and then you can leave, then we’ll get you out’.”
Claim: Dutch police deployed 5,000 officers.
Response: “In total we came to 1,200, in different shifts, though. About 1,200 were deployed. I read 5,000 police. That number is so not true.”
Claim: Israelis were “highly organised, skilled fighters with a serious desire and will to fight with police and opposing groups”.
Response: “The Amsterdam police does not recognise the claim.”

Confirmation bias?

[bob sterman]

I find it interesting that no-one appears to have picked up that the allegations made by WM Police about the Dutch Police's view of what happened in Amsterdam that were reported in The Guradian article mentioned above have been described by the Dutch Police as "not true" and in some cases "obviously inaccurate". None of the disputed claims appear in an investigation by the Dutch justice and security ministry dated in May.

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/ar ... -vcvhwr0jz

Non-paywalled article here...

https://news.sky.com/story/ban-on-macca ... s-13474429

Sebastiaan Meijer, a spokesman for the Amsterdam division, told The Sunday Times that he was "surprised" by allegations in the West Midlands Police report, which had linked 200 travelling supporters to the Israel Defence Forces (IDF).

Mr Meijer denied that his force had such intelligence, adding that the claim was meaningless given the country had a policy of conscription.

Also, Mr Meijer said that Amsterdam's force "does not recognise" the claim in the British report, attributed to Dutch law enforcement, that Israelis were "highly organised, skilled fighters with a serious desire and will to fight with police and opposing groups".

So Maccabi Tel Aviv has some racist, violent hooligan fans. But unlike racist, violent hooligan fans of other clubs - West Midlands police decided that Maccabi Tel Aviv fans must be part of some "highly organised, skilled" force linked to the Israeli military??

Hmmm

[Si_B]

So Maccabi Tel Aviv has some racist, violent hooligan fans. But unlike racist, violent hooligan fans of other clubs - West Midlands police decided that Maccabi Tel Aviv fans must be part of some "highly organised, skilled" force linked to the Israeli military??

Hmmm

Not quite sure what you are getting at here. The allegation from WM Police was that the Dutch Police had informed them that the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans were "fighters with a serious desire and will to fight with police and opposing groups". The Dutch Police stated clearly that there was no evidence to support that allegation whatsoever.

Some extracts from the official Dutch report:

“The supporters of Maccabi Tel Aviv do not have a violent reputation, although a part of this support can be characterised as fanatical. This is expressed, among other things, in the lighting of flares.”

“The Ajax-Maccabi Tel Aviv match is not a high-risk match from a football perspective, according to UEFA, the clubs themselves and our police. In addition, there is no animosity between the Ajax supporters and the Maccabi supporters; they maintain friendly ties.”

On the night the following happened (the numbers vary slightly depending on the source, but the general picture is very consistent that the antagonists were mainly Dutch and the victims mainly Israeli).

59 people arrested - 10 Israelis, 49 Dutch
5 people hospitalised - all Israelis
Subsequently, 5 people jailed for violent offences - all Dutch

That's not to say that there weren't instances of low level hooliganism by an element of Maccabi Tel Aviv fans - the report does point to aggressive behaviour by a small group. The day before the match, around 50 pulled down a Palestinian flag and taxis were vandalised by a number of the fans, who disappeared before police could make arrests. There are also allegations of deeply unpleasant chants. This level of tw.ttishness is sadly not unusual amongst football "fans" and certainly not unique to Maccabi Tel Aviv. In fact, if you look at UEFA's fines for fan behaviour, Maccabi Tel Aviv come well down the list (Galatasaray are particularly bad and I haven't seen calls to ban them from coming to Man City in January) and Celtic have a fairly bad rap too. The myth that Maccabi Tel Aviv fans have a uniquely and particularly violent set of ultras in their fan base isn't backed up with evidence, but is stated as a fact to excuse what happened in Brum and, apparently, accepted unthinkingly by many people who can't be bothered to read behind the headlines.

The unique aspect of the night was the "Jodenjacht" (Jew hunt) that was organised on Dutch WhatsApp groups well in advance of the fixture, and coordinated on the night with members signalling the presence of anyone who looked like they might be Israeli or Jewish, followed by a number of organised attacks which resulted in jail time for the offenders as mentioned above. The Israelis were the victims here, not the perpetrators.

If you are suggesting that just because most Israelis have served in some branch of the IDF, then all of the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans are some kind of SAS/SEAL/Spetsnatz blend and are uniquely dangerous, then I think you might not be very familiar with the reality of life in most branches of any armed force, or, indeed, life in Israel.

Anyway, I'm off out now to play rugby - a more dangerous sport with more civilised fans.

[bob sterman]

If you are suggesting that just because most Israelis have served in some branch of the IDF, then all of the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans are some kind of SAS/SEAL/Spetsnatz blend and are uniquely dangerous, then I think you might not be very familiar with the reality of life in most branches of any armed force, or, indeed, life in Israel.

No I'm not suggesting that at all!

Quite the opposite - I'm raising an eyebrow at WM Police making that assumption / accusation - the idea that Maccabi Tel Aviv can't just have regular hooligan fans like clubs from other countries - they must be linked to / orchestrated by the Israeli military in some sinister way.

Next they'll be alleging Mossad involvement in Eurovision.

[Si_B]

If you are suggesting that just because most Israelis have served in some branch of the IDF, then all of the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans are some kind of SAS/SEAL/Spetsnatz blend and are uniquely dangerous, then I think you might not be very familiar with the reality of life in most branches of any armed force, or, indeed, life in Israel.

No I'm not suggesting that at all!

Quite the opposite - I'm raising an eyebrow at WM Police making that assumption / accusation - the idea that Maccabi Tel Aviv can't just have regular hooligan fans like clubs from other countries - they must be linked to / orchestrated by the Israeli military in some sinister way.

Next they'll be alleging Mossad involvement in Eurovision.

In which case my apologies!

Just checked my computer before heading out the door with my boots. I'm going to get cold and wet!

[Martin_B]

I wonder what the West Midlands Police report was on Young Boys, compared to Maccabi Tel Aviv: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/arti ... 910e3kg04o