COVID-19

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
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sTeamTraen
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Re: COVID-19

Post by sTeamTraen »

Bird on a Fire wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:01 pmMy neighbour is a DJ who gets a lot of work from clubs in Lisbon. Following discussion with his usual employers, he is expecting to be out of work for at least a few months over the summer, which is a bit of a shitter as his first kid is going to be born any day.
I don't know if one can short an entire industry, but I wonder what would happen economically if nobody from the north of Europe went to Portugal or Spain for an entire summer?

I'm in Mallorca, where a lot of people's life strategy (expats and locals) is to work from April to October, thus getting the precious 183 days of employment stamps needed to spend the winter on unemployment benefits with the odd bit of work in the black to top it up. Even if the start of the season is put back by only two months, these people will be in trouble as (a) their right to benefits will run out and (b) they won't get the necessary amount of days booked. Presumably the government will take some sort of steps, but the Eurozone requirements mean that there are limits to what they can borrow to implement them.
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TheScientificHippy
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Re: COVID-19

Post by TheScientificHippy »

Are we supposed to be social distancing now. I am confused. I have no symptoms and do not need to self isolate. I work for the NHS and so need to be in more than ever, in fact I cancelled my annual leave. I feel I should be supporting my local businesses while I can. Should I only be going out for essentials or is visiting a restaurant okay
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Re: COVID-19

Post by shpalman »

TheScientificHippy wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:10 pm Are we supposed to be social distancing now. I am confused. I have no symptoms and do not need to self isolate. I work for the NHS and so need to be in more than ever, in fact I cancelled my annual leave. I feel I should be supporting my local businesses while I can. Should I only be going out for essentials or is visiting a restaurant okay
You should self-isolate 2 days before you show symptoms.
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Re: COVID-19

Post by TopBadger »

In times of war army field hospitals are typically staffed by reservists whose full time career is in the NHS. The NHS supports the army, the army isnt staffed to help the other way around.
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Re: COVID-19

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having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
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Re: COVID-19

Post by bmforre »

KAJ wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:22 pm
I guess the kit needed to nurse severe COVID-19 cases (mainly respirators?) differs from that used by field hospitals (mainly trauma cases?).
But my guesses aren't reliable.
There are massproduced respirators available that might be of help.
If too few ready right now, many more can be fabricated very quickly and offered at very reasonable cost.

The first example I looked at:
Portable medical respirators on Ali Baba:

A walmart bestseller

Company overview
Xiamen Voke Health Technology was invested by Voke Technology GmbH(Germany) and Voke Plastic and Mold Engineering Co.,Ltd. with initial registered capital of $8 million, is a high-tech company multifunctional in developing, manufacturing, selling, as well as service. We have our own brand to offer best quality and service in serial products of air purifier and medical products.
There are certainly alternatives, this is the first supplier I came across.
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Bird on a Fire
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Re: COVID-19

Post by Bird on a Fire »

sTeamTraen wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:03 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:01 pmMy neighbour is a DJ who gets a lot of work from clubs in Lisbon. Following discussion with his usual employers, he is expecting to be out of work for at least a few months over the summer, which is a bit of a shitter as his first kid is going to be born any day.
I don't know if one can short an entire industry, but I wonder what would happen economically if nobody from the north of Europe went to Portugal or Spain for an entire summer?
Portugal would be 100% f.cked. Its economic recovery from the 2008/eurozone crash is only just gathering momentum and is largely driven by increased tourism following the Arab Spring.

If I had anything to invest, shorting the buy-to-airbnb mortgage market for Lisbon and Porto would be a guaranteed win. Something like 50% of property sales in the historic districts have been to foreigners, who'll mostly be cashing in on the tourist boom and lack of local access to capital.
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Re: COVID-19

Post by tenchboy »

Lew Dolby wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:21 pm BBC News just on - 10 more deaths !!

I wish they'd be more specific about what "underlying conditions" means in these and other serious cases. Are the victims people with a decade of heart disease behind them or just (just ?!) type-2 diabetics ??
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Boustrophedon
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Re: COVID-19

Post by Boustrophedon »

Yeah I would like to know that.
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jimbob
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Re: COVID-19

Post by jimbob »

tenchboy wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:02 pm


T'ent offen that appens..png
Appropriate for the impact. Normal life has been suspended - it's just that some people don't realise yet. I can easily see that countries would need to go to a war-footing with rationing in order to provide essential goods and services.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation
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Re: COVID-19

Post by badger »

SAGE to communicate more betterly.

https://twitter.com/janemerrick23/statu ... 35297?s=20

So we can have the same arguments with better data ;)
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jimbob
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Re: COVID-19

Post by jimbob »

Yup - it's not so much "flattening the curve" as actually reducing the total overall number of cases as far as I can see

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... f-covid-19
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation
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sTeamTraen
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Re: COVID-19

Post by sTeamTraen »

badger wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:49 pm SAGE to communicate more betterly.

https://twitter.com/janemerrick23/statu ... 35297?s=20

So we can have the same arguments with better data ;)
Oh, it's a Government committee. I thought you meant the scholarly publisher of the same name (including the all caps bit) that recently published an article by a 9/11 truther.
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lpm
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Re: COVID-19

Post by lpm »

Plague flags.

Was yellow for quarantine, black and yellow for infected.

There needs to be signal everyone understands. I suggest:

Tea towel tied to front door if isolating but no symptoms.
Pillow case if isolating and infected.
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lpm
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Re: COVID-19

Post by lpm »

I think some people might like these in a specific support thread.
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Opti
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Re: COVID-19

Post by Opti »

lpm wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:02 pm I think some people might like these in a specific support thread.
That may be, I dunno, I'm not going to start it. Unless the mods split it off.
But I reckon you UKians are going to receive the same level of social control in the next couple of weeks. Get used to it folks, coming to a town near you soon.
It's f.cking weird. I was going to say the dys ... word ... thought better of it.
Time for a big fat one.
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Re: COVID-19

Post by mikeh »

Very interesting review on closing schools during pandemics. Lots of interesting case studies from different countries in different situations. Not all applicable to the here and now, of course.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lani ... 8/fulltext
(I think it's open access)

It's all very interesting (if you're dull, like me), but if you're going to scan just a bit of it, start at 'Social and economic effects of school closure' and go through the subsequent few paras. Lots to think about in there, for example, it's very expensive
They also estimated that the intervention would cost between £0·2 billion and £1·2 billion per week, with the total cost of a 12-week school closure in the range 0·2–1·0% of gross domestic product
assuming 2·5 person days per week time loss for affected households and 5 days per week for teachers during school closure, they estimated a high economic cost of school closure (about US$2·7 million per 1000 population or 6% of GDP) and that strategies involving school closure would be between 14 and 21 times as costly as intervention strategies with antiviral drugs or prevaccination alone.
Interesting variation between urban and rural impacts
A survey was done to assess how families responded to the school closure.23 In this rural area where more than 50% of households have at least one adult that does not work outside the home or can work from home, the intervention caused little disruption, with only 10% of the households reporting having to make special childcare arrangements. Of course, the outcome would likely have been different if the proportion of working parents were as high as it is in many urban settings. Also there will almost certainly be differences in how parents respond to school closure lasting 1–2 weeks versus the 2–3 months that could be needed with proactive closure (panel 1) in a pandemic.
In any high-level intervention like this, often the vulnerable people are the most affected
In many industrialised countries, social programmes targeting underprivileged children rely on school facilities. For example, in 2004 in the USA, the national school lunch programme and the school breakfast programme delivered daily meals to 29·0 million and 8·9 million children, respectively; half of the lunches served were free and an additional 10% were served at a reduced price.20 Closing schools without preparation would interrupt those programmes, with adverse consequences for vulnerable children and families
Berkman also discusses the risks associated with so-called self-care, defined as leaving a child in his or her own care or in the care of a sibling younger than 13 years old.20 Self-care has been associated with risk behaviours including increased adverse peer pressure, underage drinking, and drug use.
And we talked upthread a little bit about impact on NHS workforce if schools closed
A survey of over 5000 hospital doctors and nurses by the UK Department of Health found that 77% of respondents were women (78% of UK doctors and nurses are women), 50% of respondents had a dependent child under 16, and 21% of respondents reported they would likely be absent from work if schools closed during a pandemic.
This is such an interesting paper. But to summarise, you shouldn't close schools lightly, just because some sections of the press are demanding you DO SOMETHING NOW. You make a decision to do that at the best possible time, and for as short a time as possible.
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Re: COVID-19

Post by mikeh »

And, this is something that has been pissing me off a bit, and given a few recent posts in this thread, I'm going to say it now

We talked upthread about the social side of the outbreak, for example the elderly home alone, anxiety, loneliness and things like that.
As well as the behavioural science input into CMO policy being so important to mitigate that, the social side of the general public is important in this outbreak. You don't just shut down people's lives and say "screw them, put up with it". People are stressed, scared, uncertain.

And people, including small numbers on this forum, have been dismissive of that.

To those people - stop it. Wind your necks in. People's feelings are important. Another thread for solidarity reasons sounds like a good idea to me (though happy to take guidance from mods and those who were involved in the similar thread on the old forum).

A small starter on that - Dr Petra is worth following on twitter, see this thread from today as an example https://twitter.com/DrPetra/status/1238796429709148160 . Online support is available, albeit sometimes hard to see through the noise.
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Opti
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Re: COVID-19

Post by Opti »

As long as that's not pointed at me ;)

you're a f.cking star, mikeh. For real.
Time for a big fat one.
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Re: COVID-19

Post by badger »

sTeamTraen wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:12 pm
badger wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:49 pm SAGE to communicate more betterly.

https://twitter.com/janemerrick23/statu ... 35297?s=20

So we can have the same arguments with better data ;)
Oh, it's a Government committee. I thought you meant the scholarly publisher of the same name (including the all caps bit) that recently published an article by a 9/11 truther.
Crikey. Haven't been here long and I have a reputation as a truther. Thanks Steamy!
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Re: COVID-19

Post by Stephanie »

mikeh wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:25 pm And, this is something that has been pissing me off a bit, and given a few recent posts in this thread, I'm going to say it now

We talked upthread about the social side of the outbreak, for example the elderly home alone, anxiety, loneliness and things like that.
As well as the behavioural science input into CMO policy being so important to mitigate that, the social side of the general public is important in this outbreak. You don't just shut down people's lives and say "screw them, put up with it". People are stressed, scared, uncertain.

And people, including small numbers on this forum, have been dismissive of that.

To those people - stop it. Wind your necks in. People's feelings are important. Another thread for solidarity reasons sounds like a good idea to me (though happy to take guidance from mods and those who were involved in the similar thread on the old forum).

A small starter on that - Dr Petra is worth following on twitter, see this thread from today as an example https://twitter.com/DrPetra/status/1238796429709148160 . Online support is available, albeit sometimes hard to see through the noise.
hey lads,

thanks for this, mike - not just a fish-feeding tv star, eh? :-)

for real though, let me know what you need, folks.
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Re: COVID-19

Post by mikeh »

Opti wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:31 pm As long as that's not pointed at me ;)

you're a f.cking star, mikeh. For real.
Nah, geez, not at all.

On all your points ;)
Stephanie wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:43 pm thanks for this, mike - not just a fish-feeding tv star, eh? :-)
That's going to confuse a few forumites!

Or, maybe it's what they suspected all along.
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Woodchopper
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Re: COVID-19

Post by Woodchopper »

mikeh wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:17 pm And we talked upthread a little bit about impact on NHS workforce if schools closed
A survey of over 5000 hospital doctors and nurses by the UK Department of Health found that 77% of respondents were women (78% of UK doctors and nurses are women), 50% of respondents had a dependent child under 16, and 21% of respondents reported they would likely be absent from work if schools closed during a pandemic.
On that, up here the government has organized childcare for all healthcare personnel ETA after having closed all the schools and kindergartens. That seems to be a good compromise between preventing infection spreading and allowing the parents to get to work in the hospitals.
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Woodchopper
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Re: COVID-19

Post by Woodchopper »

mikeh wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:25 pm And, this is something that has been pissing me off a bit, and given a few recent posts in this thread, I'm going to say it now

We talked upthread about the social side of the outbreak, for example the elderly home alone, anxiety, loneliness and things like that.
As well as the behavioural science input into CMO policy being so important to mitigate that, the social side of the general public is important in this outbreak. You don't just shut down people's lives and say "screw them, put up with it". People are stressed, scared, uncertain.

And people, including small numbers on this forum, have been dismissive of that.

To those people - stop it. Wind your necks in. People's feelings are important. Another thread for solidarity reasons sounds like a good idea to me (though happy to take guidance from mods and those who were involved in the similar thread on the old forum).

A small starter on that - Dr Petra is worth following on twitter, see this thread from today as an example https://twitter.com/DrPetra/status/1238796429709148160 . Online support is available, albeit sometimes hard to see through the noise.
I agree. We're making sure that we regularly call elderly relatives who are particularly at risk.
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Re: COVID-19

Post by mikeh »

Woodchopper wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:06 pm
mikeh wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:17 pm And we talked upthread a little bit about impact on NHS workforce if schools closed
A survey of over 5000 hospital doctors and nurses by the UK Department of Health found that 77% of respondents were women (78% of UK doctors and nurses are women), 50% of respondents had a dependent child under 16, and 21% of respondents reported they would likely be absent from work if schools closed during a pandemic.
On that, up here the government has organized childcare for all healthcare personnel ETA after having closed all the schools and kindergartens. That seems to be a good compromise between preventing infection spreading and allowing the parents to get to work in the hospitals.
That sounds like a good policy.

From a distance, Scandinavians seem to have childcare and schooling pretty sorted, compared to many other countries.
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