Neolithic landscape
Neolithic landscape
An extraordinary report of a circle of pits, each 5 metres deep and 10 metres across centred on Durrington Walls.
The incomplete circle of pits is about 2km across.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... stonehenge
The incomplete circle of pits is about 2km across.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... stonehenge
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Re: Neolithic landscape
Meh. OK, they're big pits. But nothing compared to the whopping great tunnel we're going to dig right through this neolithic landscape.
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Re: Neolithic landscape
Every year we find out more and more about this area, it’s quite amazing how much we don’t know. But then again a lot of these developments have come hand in hand with better geo-phys and that has improved enormously in the last 10 years, never mind before that. It’s only fairly recently that the scope of “Stonehenge” has been increased to “the landscape around Stonehenge” as well, or at least that’s my impression.Gfamily wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:59 amAn extraordinary report of a circle of pits, each 5 metres deep and 10 metres across centred on Durrington Walls.
The incomplete circle of pits is about 2km across.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... stonehenge
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Re: Neolithic landscape
Very very cool, exciting and mysterious. Such a shame that the ancient Brits didn't write stuff down so we could have a better idea of what they were up to.
Disappointingly little speculation in the article about what the pits were for. Unlike yer average henge, a pit isn't generally visible from very far away (as they go down rather than up). So what was the point? If I had to guess I'd say putting fires in them so create an ethereal atmospheric glow for their late-night druid festivals or whatever, but presumably that would leave shitloads of burnt stuff so they'd have mentioned it.
I'm racking my brains for any examples of ceremonial arrays of pits from other cultures. Can't think of any.
Maybe they were just bins or something.
Disappointingly little speculation in the article about what the pits were for. Unlike yer average henge, a pit isn't generally visible from very far away (as they go down rather than up). So what was the point? If I had to guess I'd say putting fires in them so create an ethereal atmospheric glow for their late-night druid festivals or whatever, but presumably that would leave shitloads of burnt stuff so they'd have mentioned it.
I'm racking my brains for any examples of ceremonial arrays of pits from other cultures. Can't think of any.
Maybe they were just bins or something.
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Re: Neolithic landscape
I doubt it's related, but on a walking visit to Ouessant forty-mumble years ago I noticed that many isolated farm buildings were close to shallow pits about a metre deep and 4 or 5 metres across. I assumed that these were mini-quarries dug close to where the stones were needed.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:40 pmVery very cool, exciting and mysterious. Such a shame that the ancient Brits didn't write stuff down so we could have a better idea of what they were up to.
Disappointingly little speculation in the article about what the pits were for. Unlike yer average henge, a pit isn't generally visible from very far away (as they go down rather than up). So what was the point? If I had to guess I'd say putting fires in them so create an ethereal atmospheric glow for their late-night druid festivals or whatever, but presumably that would leave shitloads of burnt stuff so they'd have mentioned it.
I'm racking my brains for any examples of ceremonial arrays of pits from other cultures. Can't think of any.
Maybe they were just bins or something.
However, with the indications are that these are definitely arranged roughly equidistant from Durrington Walls its not likely to be a ring of farmsteads is it. [speculation] is it possible that the removed stones might also have been used to create a similarly concentric walkway, wall or similar feature? [/speculation]
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Re: Neolithic landscape
Docking points for alien space craft of course
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Re: Neolithic landscape
Archaeologists go mad for rubbish heaps, so I’m sure that would have been mentioned if they’d found much, but maybe it’s too soon in the excavations to say.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:40 pmVery very cool, exciting and mysterious. Such a shame that the ancient Brits didn't write stuff down so we could have a better idea of what they were up to.
Disappointingly little speculation in the article about what the pits were for. Unlike yer average henge, a pit isn't generally visible from very far away (as they go down rather than up). So what was the point? If I had to guess I'd say putting fires in them so create an ethereal atmospheric glow for their late-night druid festivals or whatever, but presumably that would leave shitloads of burnt stuff so they'd have mentioned it.
I'm racking my brains for any examples of ceremonial arrays of pits from other cultures. Can't think of any.
Maybe they were just bins or something.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three
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Re: Neolithic landscape
Post holes for the 4,500 BC millennium dome, obvs.
Re: Neolithic landscape
The article only mentions coring, I guess a full excavation of one or two will happen next year.
where once I used to scintillate
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Re: Neolithic landscape
Anyone familiar with the strata around there?
If you dug down 5m with your antler picks, what would you be digging through?
If you dug down 5m with your antler picks, what would you be digging through?
Re: Neolithic landscape
BGS online iGeology app says chalk and flints
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
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Re: Neolithic landscape
I, just to be contrary, was pleased with the lack of speculation about functions for the pits in the absence of much in the way of evidence. I do have a long history of being peeved with speculative presentations in museums/interpretation boards/etc and in the meejah which are never supported by anything, but confidently make claims about functions.I become even more peeved when that specualtion, with no support, just says "Oh, religious and ritual, oh yes!"Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:40 pmVery very cool, exciting and mysterious. Such a shame that the ancient Brits didn't write stuff down so we could have a better idea of what they were up to.
Disappointingly little speculation in the article about what the pits were for. Unlike yer average henge, a pit isn't generally visible from very far away (as they go down rather than up). So what was the point? If I had to guess I'd say putting fires in them so create an ethereal atmospheric glow for their late-night druid festivals or whatever, but presumably that would leave shitloads of burnt stuff so they'd have mentioned it.
I'm racking my brains for any examples of ceremonial arrays of pits from other cultures. Can't think of any.
Maybe they were just bins or something.
It's so much more attractive inside the moral kiosk
Re: Neolithic landscape
Thanks. Sounds horribly like our garden. Those neolithic folk were made of stern stuff.
Re: Neolithic landscape
Have you been to Grimes Graves? Amazing place.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Re: Neolithic landscape
Could they be flint mines?
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Re: Neolithic landscape
It's a possibility, but their positioning relative to Durrington Walls suggests something else was going on.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Re: Neolithic landscape
Saw a TV thing about it but never been.
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Re: Neolithic landscape
Isn’t the usual thing to say when the purpose isn’t obvious is it’s ceremonial?
I always think that if Wembley Stadium is uncovered in a few thousand years time it would be labelled as ceremonial. Which it kind of is, in a way.
I always think that if Wembley Stadium is uncovered in a few thousand years time it would be labelled as ceremonial. Which it kind of is, in a way.
Re: Neolithic landscape
That and “three stones make a wall”individualmember wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:38 pmIsn’t the usual thing to say when the purpose isn’t obvious is it’s ceremonial?
I always think that if Wembley Stadium is uncovered in a few thousand years time it would be labelled as ceremonial. Which it kind of is, in a way.
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Re: Neolithic landscape
I've read the paper - it seems sensible work. https://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue55/4/full-text.html
They make a convincing case that the distance of the pits from the Durrington Walls henge was measured out uniformly by pacing: they're almost equidistant from the centre, but the wobbliness of the circle corresponds with flat vs sloped land (people take longer paces on flat land). There's no sensible reason to pace 800m from a monument at regular orientations just to dig flint pits - or, as they put it:
They make a convincing case that the distance of the pits from the Durrington Walls henge was measured out uniformly by pacing: they're almost equidistant from the centre, but the wobbliness of the circle corresponds with flat vs sloped land (people take longer paces on flat land). There's no sensible reason to pace 800m from a monument at regular orientations just to dig flint pits - or, as they put it:
They haven't actually excavated the pits yet, just taken a single core from each one, so they haven't got a particularly detailed idea of what was down them, nor how deep they might originally have gone.In respect of clustering of large pits, those associated with, generally earlier, flint mines may invite consideration (Field and Barber 1998; Barber et al. 1999; Mercer 1981). In some instances, such as Cissbury hillfort, large pits associated with mining do form linear alignments; presumably following seams of flint within the boundary of the later Iron Age hillfort (Barber et al. 1999, 29). More locally, work by Booth and Stone (1952) and Stone (1958) record the presence of flint mines near Durrington. However, the illustrations provided by Stone demonstrate that these features are significantly narrower at the entrance than those described above (Figure 21). When considered spatially, Stone's features are also unlikely to be directly linked with the arcs of massive pits presented within this article. While it is not impossible that flint extracted from these pits may have been used on an ad hoc basis, the structural arrangement of the pit group around Durrington Walls, and their apparent link to the area of the henge monument, suggest that such a prosaic interpretation is not sufficient as an explanation for these features.
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Re: Neolithic landscape
Surely depth will be fairly straightforward from a core? There is presumably a bedrock strata with the rest being millennia of infill.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:44 pmI've read the paper - it seems sensible work. https://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue55/4/full-text.html
They make a convincing case that the distance of the pits from the Durrington Walls henge was measured out uniformly by pacing: they're almost equidistant from the centre, but the wobbliness of the circle corresponds with flat vs sloped land (people take longer paces on flat land). There's no sensible reason to pace 800m from a monument at regular orientations just to dig flint pits - or, as they put it:They haven't actually excavated the pits yet, just taken a single core from each one, so they haven't got a particularly detailed idea of what was down them, nor how deep they might originally have gone.In respect of clustering of large pits, those associated with, generally earlier, flint mines may invite consideration (Field and Barber 1998; Barber et al. 1999; Mercer 1981). In some instances, such as Cissbury hillfort, large pits associated with mining do form linear alignments; presumably following seams of flint within the boundary of the later Iron Age hillfort (Barber et al. 1999, 29). More locally, work by Booth and Stone (1952) and Stone (1958) record the presence of flint mines near Durrington. However, the illustrations provided by Stone demonstrate that these features are significantly narrower at the entrance than those described above (Figure 21). When considered spatially, Stone's features are also unlikely to be directly linked with the arcs of massive pits presented within this article. While it is not impossible that flint extracted from these pits may have been used on an ad hoc basis, the structural arrangement of the pit group around Durrington Walls, and their apparent link to the area of the henge monument, suggest that such a prosaic interpretation is not sufficient as an explanation for these features.
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Re: Neolithic landscape
IIRC they didn't hit bottom with all of the cores.
I think this announcement is basically "wow look at this crazy thing we found - please fund us to find out more!", which is fair enough really.
I think this announcement is basically "wow look at this crazy thing we found - please fund us to find out more!", which is fair enough really.
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Re: Neolithic landscape
Back in the old parish, during a some discussion about an archaeological site, I did a spoof post about the un-earthing of St James Park in a few thousand years, describing a religious centre, a priestly caste, various sub-groups, ritual behaviours, hymns, the whole shebang, which seemed to me to make as much sense, based on as much actual evidence, as much archaeological interpretation.individualmember wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:38 pmIsn’t the usual thing to say when the purpose isn’t obvious is it’s ceremonial?
I always think that if Wembley Stadium is uncovered in a few thousand years time it would be labelled as ceremonial. Which it kind of is, in a way.
It's so much more attractive inside the moral kiosk
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Re: Neolithic landscape
Well in this case, BOAF has read the paper (and linked to it) and summarised a couple of key points that suggest it isn't just flint pits. I have to be honest that I haven't read the paper, but if you have any comments on it specifically I'll continue to follow this thread with interest.murmur wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:09 amBack in the old parish, during a some discussion about an archaeological site, I did a spoof post about the un-earthing of St James Park in a few thousand years, describing a religious centre, a priestly caste, various sub-groups, ritual behaviours, hymns, the whole shebang, which seemed to me to make as much sense, based on as much actual evidence, as much archaeological interpretation.individualmember wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:38 pmIsn’t the usual thing to say when the purpose isn’t obvious is it’s ceremonial?
I always think that if Wembley Stadium is uncovered in a few thousand years time it would be labelled as ceremonial. Which it kind of is, in a way.
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Re: Neolithic landscape
Oh yeah, I've seen the paper and know (as per my previous post) that they've nicely avoided speculating about usage.
I'll certainly be interested to see what else is found as excavation happens.
I'll certainly be interested to see what else is found as excavation happens.
It's so much more attractive inside the moral kiosk