Getting Brexit done
- sTeamTraen
- After Pie
- Posts: 2558
- Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:24 pm
- Location: Palma de Mallorca, Spain
Re: Getting Brexit done
Does anyone have a link to a good explanation of the issues around fishing?
I have no clue what it means to say that "British fishermen sold their quota to the Dutch 20 years ago" (or whatever). It seems to me that fishing rights are either a commercial thing that can be traded freely, or they aren't. If a Dutch company owns the right to some square mile just off Lowestoft, because a UK boat sold their corner of the sea, then I don't see how Brexit would affect that. But I don't know if that is what really happened.
All I see is one lot saying "We want to take back control of our waters" and others saying "We can't, we sold them all". But clearly there is something non-trivial to negotiate about, because the EU and UK have been negotiating about it. Where do the sovereignty issues end and the contract laws between businesses begin? Help!
I have no clue what it means to say that "British fishermen sold their quota to the Dutch 20 years ago" (or whatever). It seems to me that fishing rights are either a commercial thing that can be traded freely, or they aren't. If a Dutch company owns the right to some square mile just off Lowestoft, because a UK boat sold their corner of the sea, then I don't see how Brexit would affect that. But I don't know if that is what really happened.
All I see is one lot saying "We want to take back control of our waters" and others saying "We can't, we sold them all". But clearly there is something non-trivial to negotiate about, because the EU and UK have been negotiating about it. Where do the sovereignty issues end and the contract laws between businesses begin? Help!
Something something hammer something something nail
- snoozeofreason
- Snowbonk
- Posts: 495
- Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:22 pm
Re: Getting Brexit done
There's this, if it helps https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52420116sTeamTraen wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:48 pmDoes anyone have a link to a good explanation of the issues around fishing?
I have no clue what it means to say that "British fishermen sold their quota to the Dutch 20 years ago" (or whatever). It seems to me that fishing rights are either a commercial thing that can be traded freely, or they aren't. If a Dutch company owns the right to some square mile just off Lowestoft, because a UK boat sold their corner of the sea, then I don't see how Brexit would affect that. But I don't know if that is what really happened.
All I see is one lot saying "We want to take back control of our waters" and others saying "We can't, we sold them all". But clearly there is something non-trivial to negotiate about, because the EU and UK have been negotiating about it. Where do the sovereignty issues end and the contract laws between businesses begin? Help!
In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. The human body was knocked up pretty late on the Friday afternoon, with a deadline looming. How well do you expect it to work?
Re: Getting Brexit done
Somewhere along the line I have gleaned that although "our waters" traditionally extended 12 miles from the coast, in recent decades - while we were in the EU - 200 miles has become the new standard. So "take back control" might not be the best way of describing what "we" are looking to do. Down South there aren't 200 miles worth of water to argue about, but around Scotland potentially "we" (i.e. UK, not just Scotland, as it stands) can take control of areas of sea that have *always* been fished by various nearby nations, and now we're looking to kick them out for the first time.sTeamTraen wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:48 pmAll I see is one lot saying "We want to take back control of our waters" and others saying "We can't, we sold them all".
- Brightonian
- Dorkwood
- Posts: 1445
- Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:16 pm
- Location: Usually UK, often France and Ireland
Re: Getting Brexit done
A resident of a former parish reports that sea fishing is just 0.04% of the economy:
https://twitter.com/BarumDean/status/13 ... 86368?s=19
https://twitter.com/BarumDean/status/13 ... 86368?s=19
- sTeamTraen
- After Pie
- Posts: 2558
- Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:24 pm
- Location: Palma de Mallorca, Spain
Re: Getting Brexit done
Great, thanks. That sorts a lot of things out (and I now know what the unsorted things are!).snoozeofreason wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:26 pmThere's this, if it helps https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52420116
Something something hammer something something nail
Re: Getting Brexit done
So whiny little brexiters don’t like it that someone sold their fishing license to a non British company. They now want the UK government to confiscate that property and/or significantly change the conditions attached to owning that property.Brightonian wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:54 pmA resident of a former parish reports that sea fishing is just 0.04% of the economy:
https://twitter.com/BarumDean/status/13 ... 86368?s=19
f.ck ‘em.
- veravista
- Catbabel
- Posts: 692
- Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:29 pm
- Location: Directly above the centre of the earth
Re: Getting Brexit done
Yep, how else are they going to keep all those African and Chinese deck hands working (see Fishtown, BBC2 early evenings)
- Woodchopper
- Princess POW
- Posts: 7134
- Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am
Re: Getting Brexit done
The big difference between now and last year is that in 2019 the UK and EU agreed multiple extensions to the deadline. Back then getting an extension was a relatively simple procedure- request by the UK and a vote in the EU Council.Sciolus wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:31 pmThere's the possibility that he's doing what he did a year ago: bullshitting that he's negotiating exactly what he wants, caving in to the EU's demands at the last moment, and then lying that it was the EU that blinked. But there really doesn't seem to be time for that now.
This round Johnson could have asked for an extension earlier in summer 2020. He ruled that out so there is no straightforward way to get the deadline shifted. It might still be possible but then there would need to be enough goodwill and time. Both of which are lacking.
- Woodchopper
- Princess POW
- Posts: 7134
- Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am
Re: Getting Brexit done
Perhaps, there might be an attempt to decouple the elements already agreed. We can wait and see when or if they start to negotiate doing that.
- Woodchopper
- Princess POW
- Posts: 7134
- Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am
Re: Getting Brexit done
I checked the dates for 2019.
Johnson and Varadkar made a political agreement on 10 October.
The Withdrawal Agreement bill was passed by the UK Parliament on 22 January, by the European Parliament on 29 January, and by the European Council on 30 January. Britain left on 31 January 2020.
That was in legislative terms a white knuckle ride and it took 16 weeks.
The transition period ends on 31 December. There are ten and a half weeks left and parliaments etc are due to be in recess over Christmas.
A deal would still be possible if there was a political agreement. But we’re lacking one of those.
There is still time but it’s rapidly slipping away. Conventional wisdom seems to be 2-4 weeks.
Johnson and Varadkar made a political agreement on 10 October.
The Withdrawal Agreement bill was passed by the UK Parliament on 22 January, by the European Parliament on 29 January, and by the European Council on 30 January. Britain left on 31 January 2020.
That was in legislative terms a white knuckle ride and it took 16 weeks.
The transition period ends on 31 December. There are ten and a half weeks left and parliaments etc are due to be in recess over Christmas.
A deal would still be possible if there was a political agreement. But we’re lacking one of those.
There is still time but it’s rapidly slipping away. Conventional wisdom seems to be 2-4 weeks.
Re: Getting Brexit done
Just in time for a Biden win and a “this changes everything” announcement to save face.
- Woodchopper
- Princess POW
- Posts: 7134
- Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am
Re: Getting Brexit done
I think 3 November is getting rather late for a political agreement. Even after Johnson and von det Leyen were to agree on something in principle there would still be a huge number of details to negotiate. Could be done if the UK just agrees to whatever the EU wants, like last time.
Re: Getting Brexit done
Dumb question. Could the U.K. government have imposed more conditions on U.K. fishing license while in the EU? There are currently conditions attached about landing some proportion of the catch in the U.K. or having some proportion of U.K. resident crew. If so, then the whole fishing thing is a complete and utter red herring that is down purely to the U.K. government.bjn wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:17 amSo whiny little brexiters don’t like it that someone sold their fishing license to a non British company. They now want the UK government to confiscate that property and/or significantly change the conditions attached to owning that property.Brightonian wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:54 pmA resident of a former parish reports that sea fishing is just 0.04% of the economy:
https://twitter.com/BarumDean/status/13 ... 86368?s=19
f.ck ‘em.
Re: Getting Brexit done
I’m talking about giving Johnson a reason to delay, or ask for an extension.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:28 amI think 3 November is getting rather late for a political agreement. Even after Johnson and von det Leyen were to agree on something in principle there would still be a huge number of details to negotiate. Could be done if the UK just agrees to whatever the EU wants, like last time.
The GFA alone means that he can’t make a No Deal work as well as an American trade deal.
He’s going for the strongman look, knowing he has an opportunity to call things off and claim political capital because the landscape has changed with Biden in power. He can save face and still say he tried to Get Brexit Done, but was prevented by world events.
Re: Getting Brexit done
Literally the only people supporting Johnson at the moment are people who don’t follow the news and journalists who don’t write the news. He doesn’t need sophisticated tactics to deal with these guys, he just needs a couple of wins he can shout about. They’ll just print money and deregulate like crazy.headshot wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:33 amI’m talking about giving Johnson a reason to delay, or ask for an extension.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:28 amI think 3 November is getting rather late for a political agreement. Even after Johnson and von det Leyen were to agree on something in principle there would still be a huge number of details to negotiate. Could be done if the UK just agrees to whatever the EU wants, like last time.
The GFA alone means that he can’t make a No Deal work as well as an American trade deal.
He’s going for the strongman look, knowing he has an opportunity to call things off and claim political capital because the landscape has changed with Biden in power. He can save face and still say he tried to Get Brexit Done, but was prevented by world events.
Re: Getting Brexit done
Glanced at that URL and thought Gove-is-a-what-now?
PS Hi, first-poster.
PS Hi, first-poster.
- sTeamTraen
- After Pie
- Posts: 2558
- Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:24 pm
- Location: Palma de Mallorca, Spain
- discovolante
- Stummy Beige
- Posts: 4105
- Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:10 pm
Re: Getting Brexit done
A post got removed due to potentially being spam.
To defy the laws of tradition is a crusade only of the brave.
Re: Getting Brexit done
On reflection I may have replied to a message that was adjudged to be spam.
Ah. It seems so.
Ah. It seems so.
- discovolante
- Stummy Beige
- Posts: 4105
- Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:10 pm
Re: Getting Brexit done
Well, if it wasn't, hopefully we will find out!
To defy the laws of tradition is a crusade only of the brave.
- Woodchopper
- Princess POW
- Posts: 7134
- Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am
Re: Getting Brexit done
Frost and Barnier have spoken on the phone.
Gove now talking tough in the Commons, reiterates that there will need to be a fundamental change from the EU and that the UK will prepare to trade on WTO terms.
But the door remains ajar.
Gove now talking tough in the Commons, reiterates that there will need to be a fundamental change from the EU and that the UK will prepare to trade on WTO terms.
But the door remains ajar.
- Woodchopper
- Princess POW
- Posts: 7134
- Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am
Re: Getting Brexit done
https://twitter.com/Brendandonn/status/ ... 44674?s=20He doesn’t want “no deal” and he doesn’t want this deal. Since these are the only options available he has to choose between not having his cake or not eating it either.
- Little waster
- After Pie
- Posts: 2385
- Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:35 am
- Location: About 1 inch behind my eyes
Re: Getting Brexit done
If you cast your mind way back to ancient prehistory, you know like last Friday, you might vaguely recall a lot of excitement about some sort of Australia-style deal.
The biggest difference between an Australia-style deal and crashing out with a catastrophic No Deal is probably the spelling. However a couple of the rough edges of this can be be knocked off with a series of microdeals over areas of mutual benefit which don't real impact on the major issues of trade and sovereignty, things such as aviation and policing, you know common sense obvious stuff.
Anyway Gove has just dropped his trousers and squeezed a Cummings out on one of those microdeals, because well of course he would. May wasn't impressed.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... xit-claims
The biggest difference between an Australia-style deal and crashing out with a catastrophic No Deal is probably the spelling. However a couple of the rough edges of this can be be knocked off with a series of microdeals over areas of mutual benefit which don't real impact on the major issues of trade and sovereignty, things such as aviation and policing, you know common sense obvious stuff.
Anyway Gove has just dropped his trousers and squeezed a Cummings out on one of those microdeals, because well of course he would. May wasn't impressed.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... xit-claims
This place is not a place of honor, no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here, nothing valued is here.
What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us.
This place is best shunned and left uninhabited.
What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us.
This place is best shunned and left uninhabited.
- Woodchopper
- Princess POW
- Posts: 7134
- Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am
Re: Getting Brexit done
Woodchopper wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:49 pmFrost and Barnier have spoken on the phone.
Gove now talking tough in the Commons, reiterates that there will need to be a fundamental change from the EU and that the UK will prepare to trade on WTO terms.
But the door remains ajar.
Give on areas of disagreement:
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/ ... -committeewe cannot accept proposals that would require us to: Provide full permanent access to our fishing waters with quotas substantially unchanged to those imposed by EU membership; Operate a state aid system essentially the same as the EU’s, with great discretion given to the EU to retaliate against us if it thought we were deviating from it; And more broadly, stay in step with laws proposed and adopted by the EU across areas of critical national importance.
Some wiggle room in the vague terms: ‘substantially unchanged’, ‘essentially the same’, ‘ stay in step’.
But still, it looks like Gove expects tariff free access to the single market along with weak or nonexistent level playing field rules regarding state aid and regulations on things like environmental protection. Which I doubt will happen.