Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
By the way, the full survey data is available in a PDF here https://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content ... 119cdh.pdf
Credit to Rex Piat who first linked it, in a now-split post.
Credit to Rex Piat who first linked it, in a now-split post.
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
To what extent do you think this reflects guys seeing these acts in p.rn and thinking "this is what you do", rather than "this is something I want to do"? Further, do you suppose that, for example, clumsily attempting to choke their partner reflects something these men want to do for a thrill for themselves or is it actually their belief that they're providing their partner with a bonus pleasurable sensation? A couple of dead celebrities have managed to plant in many minds the idea that choking gives one an extra buzz. Is that what this is, rather than some dominance thing?
Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
Part of the issue might be that because p.rn is in many places still taboo (despite its ubiquity) young people basically don't get taught about it; that it's fantasy, performed by actors and that mimicking it makes no more sense than mimicking John Wick. Sex education ought to cover this, I don't think it does.Martin Y wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:31 amTo what extent do you think this reflects guys seeing these acts in p.rn and thinking "this is what you do", rather than "this is something I want to do"? Further, do you suppose that, for example, clumsily attempting to choke their partner reflects something these men want to do for a thrill for themselves or is it actually their belief that they're providing their partner with a bonus pleasurable sensation? A couple of dead celebrities have managed to plant in many minds the idea that choking gives one an extra buzz. Is that what this is, rather than some dominance thing?
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
It's a good question. I've often wondered at the level of consciousness around the dominance thing, because I think it certainly is a factor in a lot of sex-related stuff, but I'm not sure most who do it are that aware of it. But yes, that's potential problem of influence and letting people, particularly men, grow up only having p.rn as their guide to what 'good' sex looks like, and having a society where many women feel afraid to say what they think about what a man is doing/has done to them.Martin Y wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:31 amTo what extent do you think this reflects guys seeing these acts in p.rn and thinking "this is what you do", rather than "this is something I want to do"? Further, do you suppose that, for example, clumsily attempting to choke their partner reflects something these men want to do for a thrill for themselves or is it actually their belief that they're providing their partner with a bonus pleasurable sensation? A couple of dead celebrities have managed to plant in many minds the idea that choking gives one an extra buzz. Is that what this is, rather than some dominance thing?
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
Looking at the breakdown by age, a lot of the more degrading acts (choking, gagging and spitting) are considerably more common in the youngest cohort of women surveyed (18-24) than the oldest (35-39). For instance, choking was experienced by 54% of the youngest group, but only 23% of the oldest group.Martin Y wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:31 amTo what extent do you think this reflects guys seeing these acts in p.rn and thinking "this is what you do", rather than "this is something I want to do"? Further, do you suppose that, for example, clumsily attempting to choke their partner reflects something these men want to do for a thrill for themselves or is it actually their belief that they're providing their partner with a bonus pleasurable sensation? A couple of dead celebrities have managed to plant in many minds the idea that choking gives one an extra buzz. Is that what this is, rather than some dominance thing?
Assuming that people's sexual partners are usually roughly of the same age, it does seem that those kinds of acts are commoner in men whose sexual development has coincided with the high prevalence of violent p.rnography, who may well think that it's normal behaviour.
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
Perhaps things akin to this guide should be offered up more widely. Whether it'd lead to more or less risky activity is moot, but education seems to be a big factor.
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
I don’t get why violent p.rn is popular in the first place. I find violence a turn off even in fantasy form. Completely speculation but does the prevalence of circumcision and the resulting decrease in penile sensitivity have any bearing on the vigour required for (male) enjoyment of sex? Most p.rn comes from the USA where circumcision is the norm.
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
The youngest are likely the most sexually inexperienced too, so many may have way more experience of viewing p.rnography than of having sex. Older men will likely have spent more time in relationships and hopefully therefore more time understanding what their partners actually want.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:50 amLooking at the breakdown by age, a lot of the more degrading acts (choking, gagging and spitting) are considerably more common in the youngest cohort of women surveyed (18-24) than the oldest (35-39). For instance, choking was experienced by 54% of the youngest group, but only 23% of the oldest group.Martin Y wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:31 amTo what extent do you think this reflects guys seeing these acts in p.rn and thinking "this is what you do", rather than "this is something I want to do"? Further, do you suppose that, for example, clumsily attempting to choke their partner reflects something these men want to do for a thrill for themselves or is it actually their belief that they're providing their partner with a bonus pleasurable sensation? A couple of dead celebrities have managed to plant in many minds the idea that choking gives one an extra buzz. Is that what this is, rather than some dominance thing?
Assuming that people's sexual partners are usually roughly of the same age, it does seem that those kinds of acts are commoner in men whose sexual development has coincided with the high prevalence of violent p.rnography, who may well think that it's normal behaviour.
Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
Not understanding other people's preferences is pretty key to this whole topic, no?Grumble wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:08 pmI don’t get why violent p.rn is popular in the first place. I find violence a turn off even in fantasy form. Completely speculation but does the prevalence of circumcision and the resulting decrease in penile sensitivity have any bearing on the vigour required for (male) enjoyment of sex? Most p.rn comes from the USA where circumcision is the norm.
One of the interesting things about the anecdote above about the choking where both partners thought the other wanted it was the lack of talking about sex. I was also struck by the notion that we live in " a society where many women feel afraid to say what they think about what a man is doing/has done to them". Again, talking about this stuff should be the norm.
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
I have no idea what is taught in sex ed these days, but I have a deep suspicion that it's inadequate. I suspect they are not talking about p.rn, or about the digital literacy required to understand the problems inherent in visiting the darker corners of the web (malware, etc.). I'm sure that there are groups working to try to improve sex ed, though.username wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:44 amPart of the issue might be that because p.rn is in many places still taboo (despite its ubiquity) young people basically don't get taught about it; that it's fantasy, performed by actors and that mimicking it makes no more sense than mimicking John Wick. Sex education ought to cover this, I don't think it does.Martin Y wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:31 amTo what extent do you think this reflects guys seeing these acts in p.rn and thinking "this is what you do", rather than "this is something I want to do"? Further, do you suppose that, for example, clumsily attempting to choke their partner reflects something these men want to do for a thrill for themselves or is it actually their belief that they're providing their partner with a bonus pleasurable sensation? A couple of dead celebrities have managed to plant in many minds the idea that choking gives one an extra buzz. Is that what this is, rather than some dominance thing?
But what we also need is a post-16 discussion amongst men about what's real and what's fantasy, how to talk to women about sex, and just how to actually even enjoy sex as a bloke. I think Hollywood sex is as much to blame as p.rn for creating an unrealistic fantasy about how sex, especially the first time you have sex with someone, works, and if young men aren't talking about what real sex is like, then they are never going to be disabused of those notions.
Weirdly, the people I know of who seem to be talking the most about good sex are women like Zoe Margolis and Cynthia Heimel, and their books are really marketed towards women. Obviously outlets like Men's Health do sex tips, and I do think that there are more men talking about this than there used to be, but I'm betting it's not enough and it's not reaching the right people.
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
It's certainly an interesting point. I've never really looked into it, and I certainly won't be doing at work, but I'm not aware of any male writers advising on good sex, in a good way, to young men.
And even if they did, there's a whole heap of very hormonal masculinity swooshing around at that age which makes getting a message through extremely difficult.
And even if they did, there's a whole heap of very hormonal masculinity swooshing around at that age which makes getting a message through extremely difficult.
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
And then there's the whole incel movement. Even if a man isn't incel - which if he is having sex, he isn't - the prevalance of some of their viler attitudes to women spills out into the general male population as a sense of entitlement, superiority, dominance etc. The pick-up artists who run courses or give advice online don't help either. Man the hunter, woman the disposable trophy etc.El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:09 pmIt's certainly an interesting point. I've never really looked into it, and I certainly won't be doing at work, but I'm not aware of any male writers advising on good sex, in a good way, to young men.
And even if they did, there's a whole heap of very hormonal masculinity swooshing around at that age which makes getting a message through extremely difficult.
There's also the idea that women like bad boys. Some women do and some women think that they can reform a bad boy, tame him, domesticate him etc. Unfortunately, the woman's idea of a bad boy and the man's idea are often very different. Again, a quick conversation would sort this out. And can always be part of seduction.
Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
Digital literacy including the idea of questioning the source and agenda of what you find online is certainly on the curriculum here from primary onwards.
I’m sure educators are aware of the issue of p.rn setting unrealistic expectations, but I don’t know how far that makes it into school sex education.
I’m sure educators are aware of the issue of p.rn setting unrealistic expectations, but I don’t know how far that makes it into school sex education.
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
Hopefully the UK is a bit ahead of here (USA) where getting basic, let alone comprehensive, sex education to children is a tricky undertaking in many parts of the country. Plan UK seem to think much more could be done and that there's an acknowledged desire for it.nekomatic wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:50 pmDigital literacy including the idea of questioning the source and agenda of what you find online is certainly on the curriculum here from primary onwards.
I’m sure educators are aware of the issue of p.rn setting unrealistic expectations, but I don’t know how far that makes it into school sex education.
Justine Greening made this statement two and a half years ago, timelines have shifted a bit, the new guidelines are to be in effect from the start of the next school year. I don't know if there are early adopters. It's slightly unfortunate imo that the attitude towards p.rn is solely negative; "that specifically sexually explicit material e.g. p.rnography presents a distorted picture of sexual behaviours, can damage the way people see themselves in relation to others and negatively affect how they behave towards sexual partners. " It certainly can do these things, how often would be a topic for research (of this type I guess).
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
I’ve been pretty impressed with what Child A has told me about her sex Ed at school. They bring in nurses from sexual health clinics, so the focus was largely on health & disease, but I’m pretty sure there was a reasonable amount on consent, coercion etc, and also what a normal female body looks like (I mean, I f.cking despair that it’s necessary to tell teenage girls that you don’t have to shave your fanny unless you want to, but here we are).
It’s certainly better than the sex Ed I had, which was non existent from school, and deeply unhealthy from my parents.
It’s certainly better than the sex Ed I had, which was non existent from school, and deeply unhealthy from my parents.
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
I wonder how much influence school Sex Ed has compared with what young people see online and what their peers tell them. From my (dim) memory of being a teenager, what school and parents told me was much less influential than what I got from my friends - there was no Internet back in the Dark Ages but there were teen magazine problem/agony aunt pages, some more responsible than others.JellyandJackson wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:47 pmI’ve been pretty impressed with what Child A has told me about her sex Ed at school. They bring in nurses from sexual health clinics, so the focus was largely on health & disease, but I’m pretty sure there was a reasonable amount on consent, coercion etc, and also what a normal female body looks like (I mean, I f.cking despair that it’s necessary to tell teenage girls that you don’t have to shave your fanny unless you want to, but here we are).
It’s certainly better than the sex Ed I had, which was non existent from school, and deeply unhealthy from my parents.
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
The dominance component is very real, even if all the men involved don't see it that way. If you look at the actions complained about they are all actions intended to dominate/demean the partner. I can't help but think the ready availability of online p.rn has to be playing a role. The men must be getting these ideas from somewhere and the fact that a small subset of activities is being cited often, rather suggests these are not homegrown in each individual perpetrating them.El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:46 amIt's a good question. I've often wondered at the level of consciousness around the dominance thing, because I think it certainly is a factor in a lot of sex-related stuff, but I'm not sure most who do it are that aware of it. But yes, that's potential problem of influence and letting people, particularly men, grow up only having p.rn as their guide to what 'good' sex looks like, and having a society where many women feel afraid to say what they think about what a man is doing/has done to them.
I am concerned that there appears to be a movement in western society (or it may just be that these voices are loudest) of laddism and entitlement where women are there solely to entertain men. This, the incel movement, even the behaviour of the President of the US and the fact that people excuse that behaviour. It is depressing.
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
I'd agree p.rn is largely responsible, or at least today's 'wrong sort' of p.rn. I mean, compare mainstream 'euro' 80's p.rn to mainstream 2010's p.rn.
The 80's 'German' p.rn I sneaked a look at as a teenager was, essentially, just sex. Two people, generally ordinary situations (often post dinner party), horny for each other, doing nice things to each others genitals in a cozy bedroom where ladies enjoyment gets near equal attention (for the most part), and erring toward normal body images represented (for the most part). And having viewed that as an impressionable young man - that's certainly how I like to roll these days.
Over the last 30 years p.rn has got more and more extreme... more people, more orifices (often at the same time), crazier situations and places, gym physiques, abusive, degrading, entirely male focussed.
So for teenagers viewing modern p.rn - that's likely going to impact how they have sex just as it influenced prior generations. We just have horrible p.rn these days.
The 80's 'German' p.rn I sneaked a look at as a teenager was, essentially, just sex. Two people, generally ordinary situations (often post dinner party), horny for each other, doing nice things to each others genitals in a cozy bedroom where ladies enjoyment gets near equal attention (for the most part), and erring toward normal body images represented (for the most part). And having viewed that as an impressionable young man - that's certainly how I like to roll these days.
Over the last 30 years p.rn has got more and more extreme... more people, more orifices (often at the same time), crazier situations and places, gym physiques, abusive, degrading, entirely male focussed.
So for teenagers viewing modern p.rn - that's likely going to impact how they have sex just as it influenced prior generations. We just have horrible p.rn these days.
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
"Real" as in that's the women's real experience. But if "all the men don't see it that way" then seemingly it's not their experience. If, as I speculated above, this is to some extent naïve guys thinking choking is something you're expected to do for women then dominance is not what they're getting from it, if anything.Chris Preston wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:41 amThe dominance component is very real, even if all the men involved don't see it that way.
I'm not so downbeat. "Laddism" was a '90s phenomenon. The current generation (with which must I accept I'm out of touch) seems much more preoccupied with consent* than previous generations which is surely a good sign. As I think Jon Ronson said, if p.rn was teaching young people all about sex, we'd see a massive rise in incest, since that appears to be the cliche which has entirely usurped the '70s plumber/repair man. (I suspect its appeal is the added thrill of watching other people's transgression rather than its being something viewers want to replicate but <shrug> that's a total guess.)I am concerned that there appears to be a movement in western society (or it may just be that these voices are loudest) of laddism and entitlement where women are there solely to entertain men. This, the incel movement, even the behaviour of the President of the US and the fact that people excuse that behaviour. It is depressing.
*Anecdata: watching a big screen re-run of Blade Runner, the scene where Deckard angrily forces Rachel to kiss him provoked a very uncomfortable reaction from the 2018 audience, which it would never have got in the '80s or '90s.
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
It depends where you look. One one hand there may be the consent you're seeing but on the other there is the incels and also the far right with their call to return to 'traditional' values and often highly sexist attitudes about a 'woman's place'.Martin Y wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:06 pm
I'm not so downbeat. "Laddism" was a '90s phenomenon. The current generation (with which must I accept I'm out of touch) seems much more preoccupied with consent* than previous generations which is surely a good sign. As I think Jon Ronson said, if p.rn was teaching young people all about sex, we'd see a massive rise in incest, since that appears to be the cliche which has entirely usurped the '70s plumber/repair man. (I suspect its appeal is the added thrill of watching other people's transgression rather than its being something viewers want to replicate but <shrug> that's a total guess.)
*Anecdata: watching a big screen re-run of Blade Runner, the scene where Deckard angrily forces Rachel to kiss him provoked a very uncomfortable reaction from the 2018 audience, which it would never have got in the '80s or '90s.
Laddism was often adopted by middle class white boys who wanted to appear working class, virile (ha!) and rebellious. It was often just a pose rather than actively misogynist (although that was certainly an element of that culture).
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
OTOH I think laddism was more mainstream.
Incels are a very fringe phenomenon and are IME widely mocked and reviled by most people. The rise of the far right is more concerning.
Incels are a very fringe phenomenon and are IME widely mocked and reviled by most people. The rise of the far right is more concerning.
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
I think it is probably a bit of both. Some men want to dominate/denigrate their partner and some men who only/mostly have p.rn as a measure of what sex constitutes act out what they see.
There still is a lot of straight p.rn out there that does not involve spiting, choking etc
It's not all rough, although that definitely has increased
I think incels are not much of an issue but maybe Pick Up Artists and their ilk are more so.
Mind you there have always been men like that
There still is a lot of straight p.rn out there that does not involve spiting, choking etc
It's not all rough, although that definitely has increased
I think incels are not much of an issue but maybe Pick Up Artists and their ilk are more so.
Mind you there have always been men like that
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
There would seem to be a lot of overlap with incels and the far right.
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Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
It's possible that incels, like TERFS, are more prevalent in my mind than in actuality as they are topics that crop up among people I follow and discuss things with. However, yes, there does seem to be an overlap. Bastards of a feather flock together.GeenDienst wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:24 pmThere would seem to be a lot of overlap with incels and the far right.
Re: Normalisation of Male Sexual Violence
I was thinking along similar lines.cvb wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:21 pmI think it is probably a bit of both. Some men want to dominate/denigrate their partner and some men who only/mostly have p.rn as a measure of what sex constitutes act out what they see.
There still is a lot of straight p.rn out there that does not involve spiting, choking etc
It's not all rough, although that definitely has increased
I think incels are not much of an issue but maybe Pick Up Artists and their ilk are more so.
Mind you there have always been men like that
In the 70s and 80s the level of *public* sexual harassment and public acceptance of it (making it to mainstream comedy on TV) was far more obvious - along with the hidden abuse that we know was happening in many institutions without check.
I wonder if such violent acts during sex were still very prevalent then.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation