UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
- shpalman
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
I'm saying that the best solution I can think of would be to not have a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland anymore.
(Well, the best solution is of course to have the UK within EU rules, but this also annoys people.)
Scottish independence, with Scotland in the EU, would just move the annoying land border between EU and non-EU. It would make this particular issue even worse.
(Well, the best solution is of course to have the UK within EU rules, but this also annoys people.)
Scottish independence, with Scotland in the EU, would just move the annoying land border between EU and non-EU. It would make this particular issue even worse.
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
I think it ultimately boils down to money. Identities can be bought - we've all seen pork barrel politics. As another example, Scotland has a very distinct identity from England, yet it voted not to leave the union - for economic reasons. Now we see increased support for Scottish (and Welsh) nationalism as it looks like the UK isn't the best economic bet. Things like the Free Ports in the budget are absolutely key here. Singapore of the North is the intention and we're certainly in for some changes.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:51 amYou may be correct that the solution is that the UK permanently agrees to transfer billions of extra spending to Northern Ireland. That could be explained to the rUK as compensation for economic disruption. If there's enough cash flowing the unionist factions may be mollified. But I really don't know whether that will work. A lot of the dispute appears to be about more abstract things like identity, and they are more difficult to buy off.
A much weaker or richer UK would affect the balance. But either will take a long time to happen.
Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
And what about the (current) majority in NI who want to remain in the U.K.?shpalman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:46 amI'm saying that the best solution I can think of would be to not have a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland anymore.
(Well, the best solution is of course to have the UK within EU rules, but this also annoys people.)
Scottish independence, with Scotland in the EU, would just move the annoying land border between EU and non-EU. It would make this particular issue even worse.
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- shpalman
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
This is a situation in which it is logically impossible to give everyone what they want.
I don't see how a large quantity of money going to Northern Ireland means that there doesn't have to be a border somewhere between thing and not-thing if Ireland not-the-whole-Island remains thing while Great Britain wants to be not-thing.
I don't see how a large quantity of money going to Northern Ireland means that there doesn't have to be a border somewhere between thing and not-thing if Ireland not-the-whole-Island remains thing while Great Britain wants to be not-thing.
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
As people have been pointing out for the last four years.
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
Maybe, maybe not. Its also possible to point to peoples who were willing to make greats sacrifices for national independence - Ireland a hundred years ago, Ukraine today. Its complicated.plodder wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:50 amI think it ultimately boils down to money. Identities can be bought - we've all seen pork barrel politics. As another example, Scotland has a very distinct identity from England, yet it voted not to leave the union - for economic reasons. Now we see increased support for Scottish (and Welsh) nationalism as it looks like the UK isn't the best economic bet. Things like the Free Ports in the budget are absolutely key here. Singapore of the North is the intention and we're certainly in for some changes.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:51 amYou may be correct that the solution is that the UK permanently agrees to transfer billions of extra spending to Northern Ireland. That could be explained to the rUK as compensation for economic disruption. If there's enough cash flowing the unionist factions may be mollified. But I really don't know whether that will work. A lot of the dispute appears to be about more abstract things like identity, and they are more difficult to buy off.
A much weaker or richer UK would affect the balance. But either will take a long time to happen.
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
It depends whether they're pissed off because they absolutely don't want a border. Or whether they're pissed off because Johnson lied and then sold them out. The letter can be read both ways. If the latter or a combination of both they may be persuaded to avoid doing anything drastic by a sufficiently generous act of contrition by Whitehall.shpalman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:53 amThis is a situation in which it is logically impossible to give everyone what they want.
I don't see how a large quantity of money going to Northern Ireland means that there doesn't have to be a border somewhere between thing and not-thing if Ireland not-the-whole-Island remains thing while Great Britain wants to be not-thing.
But if it is just about the border then I agree, there isn't a compromise that'll satisfy all of the unionists, nationalists, Republic of Ireland, current UK government and the EU. Someone has to accept a turd sandwich, and at the moment that's the unionists.
Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
shpalman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:53 amThis is a situation in which it is logically impossible to give everyone what they want.
I don't see how a large quantity of money going to Northern Ireland means that there doesn't have to be a border somewhere between thing and not-thing if Ireland not-the-whole-Island remains thing while Great Britain wants to be not-thing.
The fudge is in the definitions used for things like border, thing and not-thing.
Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
Well, as long as Westminster don't roll the tanks into George Square we're hardly in that territory.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:00 pm
Maybe, maybe not. Its also possible to point to peoples who were willing to make greats sacrifices for national independence - Ireland a hundred years ago, Ukraine today. Its complicated.
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
What, like that time before?plodder wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:42 pmWell, as long as Westminster don't roll the tanks into George Square we're hardly in that territory.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:00 pm
Maybe, maybe not. Its also possible to point to peoples who were willing to make greats sacrifices for national independence - Ireland a hundred years ago, Ukraine today. Its complicated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_George_Square
Supposedly my grandad was there with his revolver in his pocket, but didn't fancy taking on machine guns.
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
Reddit manages to get Star Wars prequel jokes everywhere.aa2051 wrote:It’s over Ireland! I have the Highlands!
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
Didn't realise they'd sent tanks!Allo V Psycho wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:14 pmWhat, like that time before?plodder wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:42 pmWell, as long as Westminster don't roll the tanks into George Square we're hardly in that territory.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:00 pm
Maybe, maybe not. Its also possible to point to peoples who were willing to make greats sacrifices for national independence - Ireland a hundred years ago, Ukraine today. Its complicated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_George_Square
Supposedly my grandad was there with his revolver in his pocket, but didn't fancy taking on machine guns.
Yes, exactly like that. If Westminster does that then a bribe won't cut it so easily. Although if you've read your Scottish history its a murky broth of backstabbing, betrayal, lies and cunning, effeminate English aristocrats and weak willed, effeminate clan chiefs who fell for the soft southern effeminate lifestyle and sold out their hairy, brave, hairy, brave, hairy people. Och aye the noo so it is, so it is.
Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
Perhaps PM Dicks calculation is that in the intervening 20 years since the GFA the guns have rusted and bomb making skills have vanished... I think its going to take more than a letter to convince him there is a problem.
You can't polish a turd...
unless its Lion or Osterich poo... http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbus ... -turd.html
unless its Lion or Osterich poo... http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbus ... -turd.html
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
It looks like Johnson’s plan is to build a tunnel from Scotland to Northern Ireland. It’s a nice symbol of the union and would cut travel times.
Or at least talk about it and do feasibility studies for years until it’s someone else’s problem.
Or at least talk about it and do feasibility studies for years until it’s someone else’s problem.
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
Isn't that the tunnel whose path would take it extremely close to a load of unexploded bombs?
As a symbol of, etc etc.
As a symbol of, etc etc.
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
There would presumably be a lot of rock between the munitions and the tunnel. So the explosives shouldn’t be disturbed. Would have been a big issue for a bridge though.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:02 pmIsn't that the tunnel whose path would take it extremely close to a load of unexploded bombs?
As a symbol of, etc etc.
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
And this tunnel would reassure the EU about stuff from the UK not being brought into EU via Ireland to avoid third country controls how exactly?
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
Ah yes, that was it.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:25 pmThere would presumably be a lot of rock between the munitions and the tunnel. So the explosives shouldn’t be disturbed. Would have been a big issue for a bridge though.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:02 pmIsn't that the tunnel whose path would take it extremely close to a load of unexploded bombs?
As a symbol of, etc etc.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
Not only a lot of rock, but also an awful lot of water. And then you'd just need to get to/from Stranraer. And to/from Larne.
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
They are talking about a rail tunnel, like under the channel. There is already a railway line from Stranraer to Glasgow, and from Larne to Belfast. Though they would need major upgrading.
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
Aren't they different gauges on either end?
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
I think major upgrading is a tad of an understatement.
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Re: UK-EU relations and Northern Ireland
Come on, it is not going to happen.
A border in the Irish Sea just means that Irish unification is closer. Another five years, hold a referendum, NI will agree to join Ireland in the EU.
A border in the Irish Sea just means that Irish unification is closer. Another five years, hold a referendum, NI will agree to join Ireland in the EU.
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