egbert26 wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:32 pm
I wonder if anyone is considering whether it might be time we added 'sex' to the list of characteristics on which hate crimes are based...
I believe some police forces do record hate crimes based on misogyny but only a few. It was raised on the Today programme on R4 this morning. They were talking to Sajid Javid and apparently he asked the Law Commission for a review of whether it should indeed be treated as a hate crime when he was Home Sec. I just searched for references and found that that was indeed the case - back in 2018 - along with misandry and ageism and "alternative subcultures". I have no idea how long such things take but we seem to be 3 years down the line with no answer yet. Javid refused to answer the question as to whether he personally thought that it should be, saying that he preferred to base such things on evidence. I'm not sure what evidence he needs, really, so that was clearly just evading the question.
The 'alternative subculture' mentioned in that article is Goth. I do appreciate a bit of goth culture myself but how will they distinguish between goth as a fashion choice and goth as a lifestyle/philosophy?
That threw me a bit. I know that much of what "the public" think they know about Goth culture is wrong, partly because they think all Goths are like Marilyn Manson, partly because the guys who shot up Columbine High School (and a couple of other schools in America) were identified in the media as Goths (they may have listened to some Goth Metal, but weren't actual Goths) and partly because there have been some films where female Goths were depicted as submissives and into bondage/rape play. This leads people to think that Goths are a male-dominated culture and female Goths are to be playthings.
My actual experience of Goths (both from being a sort of Goth/Grunge at Uni, and from where I've seen the culture has grown to) is that Goth culture is actually more female-orientated. Male Goths tend more towards an androgynous look, often involving make-up and sometimes wearing skirts, and while female Goths do tend to wear more sexualised clothing (corsets, short skirts, obvious stockings, etc) it's they who more often initiate the choosing of their partner than the male. Also, Goth culture tends to be more flexible in gender roles such that bi-sexuality and polyamorous behaviour isn't unusual for both men and women.
Quite why Goth should be considered anywhere close to misogyny, misandry or ageism is bizarre.
"My interest is in the future, because I'm going to spend the rest of my life there"
Stranger Mouse wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:24 pm
It just occurred to me that I wouldn’t be able to tell a genuine warrant card from an off peak bus pass.
Size of a credit card, looks pretty much like any other ID card.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three
I believe some police forces do record hate crimes based on misogyny but only a few. It was raised on the Today programme on R4 this morning. They were talking to Sajid Javid and apparently he asked the Law Commission for a review of whether it should indeed be treated as a hate crime when he was Home Sec. I just searched for references and found that that was indeed the case - back in 2018 - along with misandry and ageism and "alternative subcultures". I have no idea how long such things take but we seem to be 3 years down the line with no answer yet. Javid refused to answer the question as to whether he personally thought that it should be, saying that he preferred to base such things on evidence. I'm not sure what evidence he needs, really, so that was clearly just evading the question.
The 'alternative subculture' mentioned in that article is Goth. I do appreciate a bit of goth culture myself but how will they distinguish between goth as a fashion choice and goth as a lifestyle/philosophy?
That threw me a bit. I know that much of what "the public" think they know about Goth culture is wrong, partly because they think all Goths are like Marilyn Manson, partly because the guys who shot up Columbine High School (and a couple of other schools in America) were identified in the media as Goths (they may have listened to some Goth Metal, but weren't actual Goths) and partly because there have been some films where female Goths were depicted as submissives and into bondage/rape play. This leads people to think that Goths are a male-dominated culture and female Goths are to be playthings.
My actual experience of Goths (both from being a sort of Goth/Grunge at Uni, and from where I've seen the culture has grown to) is that Goth culture is actually more female-orientated. Male Goths tend more towards an androgynous look, often involving make-up and sometimes wearing skirts, and while female Goths do tend to wear more sexualised clothing (corsets, short skirts, obvious stockings, etc) it's they who more often initiate the choosing of their partner than the male. Also, Goth culture tends to be more flexible in gender roles such that bi-sexuality and polyamorous behaviour isn't unusual for both men and women.
Quite why Goth should be considered anywhere close to misogyny, misandry or ageism is bizarre.
They were concerned with whether goths and other alternative lifestyles should be a protected characteristics (and so hate directed at them would be covered by the legislation).
noggins wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:31 pm
I think the warrant card is a red herring.
An off duty cop arresting someone should surely merely detain the suspect in situ until on-duty police arrive to take over.
If not uniformed, you wouldn't be able to tell whether they were on or off duty.
To me, the issue is that if we give the police a special status as regards the severity of sentencing for an assault on an officer, or the murder of an officer, then they should be subjected to a similar severity in terms of sentencing for their misdemeanours.
There's this concept of a "position of responsibility" or something like that, isn't there? At least there is in the UK from my recollection of news reports about teachers abusing pupils.
As an aside, when there are these cases of someone being shot by police in the US, sometimes people say "they should have complied!!!". I wonder if at some point when a woman in the UK doesn't feel comfortable complying they'll get beaten up and then charged with resisting arrest.
noggins wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:31 pm
I think the warrant card is a red herring.
An off duty cop arresting someone should surely merely detain the suspect in situ until on-duty police arrive to take over.
If not uniformed, you wouldn't be able to tell whether they were on or off duty.
To me, the issue is that if we give the police a special status as regards the severity of sentencing for an assault on an officer, or the murder of an officer, then they should be subjected to a similar severity in terms of sentencing for their misdemeanours.
Exactly, and any misuse of their position should be treated as misconduct in a public office.
noggins wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:31 pm
I think the warrant card is a red herring.
An off duty cop arresting someone should surely merely detain the suspect in situ until on-duty police arrive to take over.
If not uniformed, you wouldn't be able to tell whether they were on or off duty.
To me, the issue is that if we give the police a special status as regards the severity of sentencing for an assault on an officer, or the murder of an officer, then they should be subjected to a similar severity in terms of sentencing for their misdemeanours.
Exactly, and any misuse of their position should be treated as misconduct in a public office.
Though, as we found when Boris lied on the side of a bus, deciding whether someone was acting 'in the execution of their public office' is not always as clear as one would hope.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Stranger Mouse wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:24 pm
It just occurred to me that I wouldn’t be able to tell a genuine warrant card from an off peak bus pass.
Size of a credit card, looks pretty much like any other ID card.
I've seen a real one and it wouldn't be hard to fake especially when it's in a plastic wallet. It's not like the big shield on an FBI badge.
Tessa K wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:19 am
How to avoid sexual assault...
As an aside, I shared this on a local fb page and got promptly banned. 3 women admins. Someone complained about me 'man-shaming' and another called me 'evil'.
Tessa K wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:19 am
How to avoid sexual assault...
As an aside, I shared this on a local fb page and got promptly banned. 3 women admins. Someone complained about me 'man-shaming' and another called me 'evil'.
noggins wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:31 pm
I think the warrant card is a red herring.
An off duty cop arresting someone should surely merely detain the suspect in situ until on-duty police arrive to take over.
If not uniformed, you wouldn't be able to tell whether they were on or off duty.
To me, the issue is that if we give the police a special status as regards the severity of sentencing for an assault on an officer, or the murder of an officer, then they should be subjected to a similar severity in terms of sentencing for their misdemeanours.
Exactly, and any misuse of their position should be treated as misconduct in a public office.
One thing that did go right was the sentencing, treating it more seriously precisely because of the abuse of position.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three
Stranger Mouse wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:24 pm
It just occurred to me that I wouldn’t be able to tell a genuine warrant card from an off peak bus pass.
Size of a credit card, looks pretty much like any other ID card.
I've seen a real one and it wouldn't be hard to fake especially when it's in a plastic wallet. It's not like the big shield on an FBI badge.
Yeah, I’ve got a friend in the police, not that I see his card often.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three
Tessa K wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:19 am
How to avoid sexual assault...
As an aside, I shared this on a local fb page and got promptly banned. 3 women admins. Someone complained about me 'man-shaming' and another called me 'evil'.
How did you know they were women?
Names and photographs of the only 3 admins. The same for the commenters who made the comments about me. I have seen their other posts. They are, without doubt, women. One of them is a Trump supporter and a Q-Anon believer.
I think they probably are anti-vaxx. I'm sure I've already been walking a thin line with my pro-vax and pro-mask postings. This was probably the final straw.
There is a small, but very vocal, anti-vaxx 'community' down here. Spain has 77.4% fully vaccinated of the whole population, social responsibility is a big thing here.
My ban was made more strange by the fact that laws against violence against women are taken very seriously indeed here. For the most part women are seriously respected. It's the 'ex-pat' community who are pissing into the wind.
According to the Daily Express, lots of them are upping and leaving. Good. Many of them object to paying Spanish taxes and are 'illegal' anyway.
They all think that the Brit £ is propping up the Spanish economy, they aren't, we are well rid of the old f.ckers.
Which prompts the question of why you would post that there.
However, what is clear is that the man who murdered Sarah Everard was a prolific user of sex workers and p.rnography. He also participated in closed whats app groups with other police officers. It's clear that VAWG is endemic not just in this country but world wide.
The Government has failed miserably to address the issue and the opposition, with the exception of a few good MPs, is no better.
There has to be a national strategy to stop this, adopted and praised worldwide, to address the problem.
The post had plenty of support there. There is just a hardcore of contrarians on that page that are reactionary old f.cks. They all meet in a bar called 'Fergusson's' on the prom in Estepona (about 15kms away). It's like a time warp back to a Dagenham pub in the 90's.
Some may call it trolling, I call it consciousness-raising. I have opened a few eyes, my work has not been in vain
This isn't the thread to discuss trans issues. Posts doing so will be deleted. If you want to discuss trans issues, start a new thread, with the warning that transphobia is prohibited and will lead to a ban.
Opti wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:09 am
As an aside, I shared this on a local fb page and got promptly banned. 3 women admins. Someone complained about me 'man-shaming' and another called me 'evil'.
"Male violence against women should be treated as of the same order as other ideologically motivated violence against a class of people: as terrorism."
noggins wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:31 pm
I think the warrant card is a red herring.
An off duty cop arresting someone should surely merely detain the suspect in situ until on-duty police arrive to take over.
Just catching up with this.
In the UK there isn’t a legal distinction between ‘on duty’ and ‘off duty’ officers. Special authority is granted to an individual and isn’t limited to whether they’ve clocked on. The situation is similar to doctors - eg they can prescribe or administer drugs at any time regardless of whether they’re at work or on holiday.
My point is: on reflection, a single out of uniform police officer arresting someone and putting them in an unmarked car surely must be bogus. It makes no sense as legitimate policing. But I don’t know for sure and I don't know where to check and the police are not forthcoming.
(Probably spilt this thread into a discussion about police?)
