Scrutable

https://www.vice.com/en/article/dy8x77/ ... ks-of-piss

I don't even recall "Project Fear" warning Leave voters that their gardens would smell of piss as a result of Brexit.

Woodchopper wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:18 pmRegarding scrutiny, Johnson is probably less worried about losing a vote in Parliament (he's got a majority of 80, and Labour will probably abstain), than he is about headlines denouncing him as a traitor to the Tory party members.

Regarding scrutiny, I don't think anyone gives a toss about either decision-makers or those affected being able to actually read and understand whatever is in the final text. If they did, they would have allowed rather more time for it.

jimbob wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:27 pm https://www.vice.com/en/article/dy8x77/ ... ks-of-piss

I don't even recall "Project Fear" warning Leave voters that their gardens would smell of piss as a result of Brexit.

Still ... blue passports.




What was missing there was the obvious follow-up question to the Leave voters, "So, do you regret your vote?".

With that follow-up you'll either get a "yes, it was still worth it because bendy bananas/black people/other" or "no, it was a mistake" which you can hang your narrative on.

Without that it's just a deeply unsatisfying report of "stuff that has happened".

An update on the state of play on fish: https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1218/1185177-brexit/

plodder wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:54 am

Woodchopper wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:37 am UK sets up borders but fails to fund port infrastructure to implement those borders
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/13 ... 47393?s=21

Dover requested £33 million, got £33 000. Wait for long queues in the summer.

f.cking hell. £33k won't buy you a reliable HGV. A couple of portacabins perhaps. I hope they're not relying on the Farage Garage, it's not going to be ready in time.

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit- ... ark-796873

£33k will just about cover the costs of clearing up all the bottles of wee discarded on the M20.

https://news.sky.com/video/kent-trucks- ... 0-12165809

Brexit free trade deal ultimately scuppered when global pandemic devastated lives and the world economy, mutated to infect mink, devastating Jutland, whose fisherman have long prized the sand eels in UK waters, and refused to compromise

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/ ... 07202?s=20

Click on the link for an explanation

Woodchopper wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 4:25 pm

Brexit free trade deal ultimately scuppered when global pandemic devastated lives and the world economy, mutated to infect mink, devastating Jutland, whose fisherman have long prized the sand eels in UK waters, and refused to compromise

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/ ... 07202?s=20

Click on the link for an explanation

The world economy mutated to infect mink?

Sciolus wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:35 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:18 pmRegarding scrutiny, Johnson is probably less worried about losing a vote in Parliament (he's got a majority of 80, and Labour will probably abstain), than he is about headlines denouncing him as a traitor to the Tory party members.

Regarding scrutiny, I don't think anyone gives a toss about either decision-makers or those affected being able to actually read and understand whatever is in the final text. If they did, they would have allowed rather more time for it.

If there is a deal it looks like the U.K. parliament will get a day or so to debate.

The flag-shaggers have been wanging on about how the UK doesn't need EU food products, one aspect of which has been the claim that they all eat something called Somerset Brie. I thought I would write a snarky tweet about that (we're mostly locked down here and I'm bored), so I went to look up the size of the producers of Somerset Brie, expecting to say something like "FFS, it's a small family business that only makes 50,000 cheeses a year, it's hardly going to compete with the capacity of big French producers".

Instead, I discovered something quite interesting.

Good job there's no cheese because you won't be able to take a sandwich with you to eat on the trip.

The UK's position on fish - wanting to have political control over who catches what in its territory - seems pretty reasonable. Obviously they'd have to buy back the foreign quotas rather than expropriating them, but zonal attachment of natural resources is a good idea. I'm not quite sure what a priori argument the EU can make for wanting continued access beyond "it's been going on for a long time".

shpalman wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:53 pm Good job there's no cheese because you won't be able to take a sandwich with you to eat on the trip.

Brexit confirmed as a vegan conspiracy.

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:36 pm The UK's position on fish - wanting to have political control over who catches what in its territory - seems pretty reasonable. Obviously they'd have to buy back the foreign quotas rather than expropriating them, but zonal attachment of natural resources is a good idea. I'm not quite sure what a priori argument the EU can make for wanting continued access beyond "it's been going on for a long time".

But British boats also fish outside UK waters today. This map claims to show a snapshot of UK-registered fishing vessels at sea (I imagine it's easy to reproduce at MarineTraffic.com); from eyeballing I'd guess that two-thirds are outside British territorial waters.

For sure, and its reasonable for those territories to decide who fishes there, too.

As far as I can tell, the EU is fine with UK (et al) boats continuing to fish there in principle, as long as the UK gives reciprocal access. Does the UK's position demand unreciprocated access to EU waters?

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:23 pm As far as I can tell, the EU is fine with UK (et al) boats continuing to fish there in principle, as long as the UK gives reciprocal access. Does the UK's position demand unreciprocated access to EU waters?

Well, if the UK's position is to send the Royal Navy to machine-gun French trawlers, I doubt if the EU (and EEA; Norway and Iceland have a lot of coastline) will be queuing up to grant access to their waters. And given the problems of paperwork, I guess that means herring and mackerel coming into fashion in the UK's fish and chip shops.

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:36 pm The UK's position on fish - wanting to have political control over who catches what in its territory - seems pretty reasonable. Obviously they'd have to buy back the foreign quotas rather than expropriating them, but zonal attachment of natural resources is a good idea. I'm not quite sure what a priori argument the EU can make for wanting continued access beyond "it's been going on for a long time".

The EU’s position is basically that if the UK wants access to the single market the UK needs to give the EU access to fish within the UK EEZ. The EU has a lot more leverage now than it will in the future when it probably won’t be in a position to trade access for access.

sTeamTraen wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:03 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:23 pm As far as I can tell, the EU is fine with UK (et al) boats continuing to fish there in principle, as long as the UK gives reciprocal access. Does the UK's position demand unreciprocated access to EU waters?

Well, if the UK's position is to send the Royal Navy to machine-gun French trawlers, I doubt if the EU (and EEA; Norway and Iceland have a lot of coastline) will be queuing up to grant access to their waters. And given the problems of paperwork, I guess that means herring and mackerel coming into fashion in the UK's fish and chip shops.

The UK navy isn’t going to machinegun French trawlers. That would be a very serious crime.

Woodchopper wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:06 pm

sTeamTraen wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:03 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:23 pm As far as I can tell, the EU is fine with UK (et al) boats continuing to fish there in principle, as long as the UK gives reciprocal access. Does the UK's position demand unreciprocated access to EU waters?

Well, if the UK's position is to send the Royal Navy to machine-gun French trawlers, I doubt if the EU (and EEA; Norway and Iceland have a lot of coastline) will be queuing up to grant access to their waters. And given the problems of paperwork, I guess that means herring and mackerel coming into fashion in the UK's fish and chip shops.

The UK navy isn’t going to machinegun French trawlers. That would be a very serious crime.

Of course it isn't, but the flagshagger fantasists are all making the rat-a-tat, nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh noises in anticipation. They probably hope that any stray bullets will hit all those migrants in RIBs.

Woodchopper wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:04 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:36 pm The UK's position on fish - wanting to have political control over who catches what in its territory - seems pretty reasonable. Obviously they'd have to buy back the foreign quotas rather than expropriating them, but zonal attachment of natural resources is a good idea. I'm not quite sure what a priori argument the EU can make for wanting continued access beyond "it's been going on for a long time".

The EU’s position is basically that if the UK wants access to the single market the UK needs to give the EU access to fish within the UK EEZ. The EU has a lot more leverage now than it will in the future when it probably won’t be in a position to trade access for access.

That was what I understood - using its economic might to force the UK to open its fisheries to overexploitation under the CFP (which is severely criticised by pretty much every fisheries scientist AFAICT, not to mention loads of fishers).

It's one of the few areas of Brexit where the UK is not just obviously in the wrong. I don't see any particular reason why access to a marketplace should be contingent on direct access to natural resource extraction, and it's a pretty unusual request.

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:13 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:04 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:36 pm The UK's position on fish - wanting to have political control over who catches what in its territory - seems pretty reasonable. Obviously they'd have to buy back the foreign quotas rather than expropriating them, but zonal attachment of natural resources is a good idea. I'm not quite sure what a priori argument the EU can make for wanting continued access beyond "it's been going on for a long time".

The EU’s position is basically that if the UK wants access to the single market the UK needs to give the EU access to fish within the UK EEZ. The EU has a lot more leverage now than it will in the future when it probably won’t be in a position to trade access for access.

I don't see any particular reason why access to a marketplace should be contingent on direct access to natural resource extraction, and it's a pretty unusual request.

The original EEC is the only other example I can think of. And the EEC set up the CFP just before Britain and Ireland joined so that they could get their hands on the fish.

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:13 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:04 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:36 pm The UK's position on fish - wanting to have political control over who catches what in its territory - seems pretty reasonable. Obviously they'd have to buy back the foreign quotas rather than expropriating them, but zonal attachment of natural resources is a good idea. I'm not quite sure what a priori argument the EU can make for wanting continued access beyond "it's been going on for a long time".

The EU’s position is basically that if the UK wants access to the single market the UK needs to give the EU access to fish within the UK EEZ. The EU has a lot more leverage now than it will in the future when it probably won’t be in a position to trade access for access.

That was what I understood - using its economic might to force the UK to open its fisheries to overexploitation under the CFP (which is severely criticised by pretty much every fisheries scientist AFAICT, not to mention loads of fishers).

That’s what the EU does to weaker external states. Britain had better get used to seeing the wrong end of the EU’s economic might.

Bird on a Fire wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:27 pm Maybe Johnson is hoping that at 11pm on the 31st Michel Barnier is going to burst out of the cake and sing "Auld Lang Syne, Monsieur Prime Minister", peeling sheets of paper one-by-one from his lingerie-clad body which on closer inspection turn out to contain the text of an EU trade deal acquiescing to all of the UK's wildest demands, even the impossible or contradictory ones, already signed and ratified.

That would be Boris' worst nightmare. If the EU gives him everything he asks for then the subsequent, inevitable disaster is quite obviously his fault. He really, really wants the EU to demand something which is suitable for him to blame for the fallout. I doubt that fishing is in that category, so he may use that as an excuse to reject the whole deal. Of course, that means that if that's the only point of disagreement remaining, the EU would immediately cave in and the watch delightedly as Boris gets blamed for everything.

I hadn't expected the ports to get f.cked up this early. Felixstowe as well as Dover.

lpm wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:40 am I hadn't expected the ports to get f.cked up this early. Felixstowe as well as Dover.

Did you forget who was prime minister?

lpm wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:40 am I hadn't expected the ports to get f.cked up this early. Felixstowe as well as Dover.

In Twitter there was an angry exchange when someone asked why the huge queues of lorries given that we're still de facto in the EU. Someone replied implying the questioner was a Brexiter troll for asking, but I don't think he was. In fact, I'd wondered the same thing and had almost asked the same question myself, till I soon discovered it's simply stockpiling by businesses.

But I've since seen a figure saying freight volumes are actually only 40% above normal (no, I now cannot find it). If that's true, I'm surprised that freight traffic is so sensitive to a not-huge change in volumes.